I Tried My First Set of Thomastik Infeld strings (12 Jazz Swing)

**stevedenver** · 09-05-2012, 11:04 AM

did you find the 13s fatiguing, or did you have the chance to play them for a prolonged period?

i love the sound but they are too stiff , even TIs for me for prolonged comping and the like-i mean like 2-3 hours at a time-

but they do sound great

**hot ford coupe** · 09-05-2012, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by stevedenver

did you find the 13s fatiguing, or did you have the chance to play them for a prolonged period?

i love the sound but they are too stiff , even TIs for me for prolonged comping and the like-i mean like 2-3 hours at a time-

but they do sound great

Steve, the .013s are definitely not as fatiguing as the D'Addario Chromes I was using. The test is if I first pick up the guitar and I can play 2 songs completely through without stopping in the middle of a song, that tells me I'll be o.k. I couldn't do that with the .013 D'A Chromes and needed an extended "warm up". Now I don't have that problem. What may be aggravating the cramping is I use a lot of barre chords. Now when I feel the start of the cramping, I use a different inversion or grip where I don't need a barre and that seems to ease up the discomfort so I can finish the song. Also, since my only gig is at the nursing home, I never play more than 45 minutes to an hour. I'm sure if I had to do a full 3-4 hour gig, I'd probably have to go to .011s or .012s. Another thing that will help me out is if I need to play longer than the 1 hour, I'll use my Guild AA on the gig which is strung with .012s instead of the Heritage Gretsch which has the .013s. That way, I can choose which set of strings to use and still be able to play a quality guitar. If I were you however, I wouldn't use the .013s. They do sound great but what's the sense of sounding a certain way if it's too uncomfortable to play. I'd rather change my sound a bit and be able to enjoy the gig.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-05-2012, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by stevedenver

did you find the 13s fatiguing, or did you have the chance to play them for a prolonged period?

i love the sound but they are too stiff , even TIs for me for prolonged comping and the like-i mean like 2-3 hours at a time-

but they do sound great

I've TI GB14's on an Excel. 12's seemed much to thin to my liking, and 14's made the guitars tone come alive. Seems like a different guitar now.

**balthazar** · 09-05-2012, 01:17 PM

I have no difficulties with Jazz Swing 13's and after reading this thread, I think I have to give a try to George Benson 14 - 55.

**lpdeluxe** · 09-05-2012, 01:30 PM

I use D'Addario .012s (w3rd) on my 335, and probably will never change. On my basses, however, every one (except a fretless that still has its factory strings on it) is strung with TI Jazz Flats. They sound good, feel good, and last forever. I bought a Fender Classic '50s Precision in '07 and put a set on it. A couple of years later, I "upgraded" to an American Vintage '57 P. I took the TIs off the first one and installed them on the second one, and put the factory-supplied roundwounds on the first one because a friend wanted to buy it. In the event, he didn't, and I put it back in rotation, with a new set of TIs. The 5-year-old set is still on the AV '57, and look to last forever.

A TI rep detailed the construction differences on a talkbass.com thread some time ago, but I don't remember all that he said. What he did say was that tension is lower with the TIs, partly as a result of the manufacturing method. It is a fact that a lot of us think that's good, while others dislike it.

I'm not surprised to hear that the guitar strings are as well liked.

**hot ford coupe** · 09-05-2012, 02:43 PM

I'd love to try the .014s but I already had that experience with a custom set I used. I took a set of .010 D'A Chromes, tossed away the .010 E string and used the B as the first string and so on with a .056 in the low E position. I even had a wound B string. The guitar had a 24 3/4 inch scale and even though the action was pretty low, it still tore my hand up after a while. I couldn't play more than 30 minutes at a time without extreme fatigue. I still have significant fatigue with the D'A .013s which is why I'm hesitant to try the GB .014s. I'll do a little more research on the strings and see what I come up with. BTW, thanks again guys for all this great information. It's definitely helped make my guitars sound their best.

**zigzag** · 09-05-2012, 04:47 PM

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would need string gauge over 12s on an electric guitar (or acoustic for that matter). While I spend most of my time these days trying to play jazz, I like to play blues occasionally, and I need to be able to bend and use a deep vibrato. Strings over 11s are a problem for me. I noticed, too, that string tensions on T-I 11 Swings are the same as the D'A 11s w/w3rd (nickel roundwound), and less than Chrome 11s.

http://www.thestringguy.com/tension.html

**balthazar** · 09-05-2012, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I use D'Addario .012s (w3rd) on my 335, and probably will never change. On my basses, however, every one (except a fretless that still has its factory strings on it) is strung with TI Jazz Flats. They sound good, feel good, and last forever. I bought a Fender Classic '50s Precision in '07 and put a set on it. A couple of years later, I "upgraded" to an American Vintage '57 P. I took the TIs off the first one and installed them on the second one, and put the factory-supplied roundwounds on the first one because a friend wanted to buy it. In the event, he didn't, and I put it back in rotation, with a new set of TIs. The 5-year-old set is still on the AV '57, and look to last forever.

A TI rep detailed the construction differences on a talkbass.com thread some time ago, but I don't remember all that he said. What he did say was that tension is lower with the TIs, partly as a result of the manufacturing method. It is a fact that a lot of us think that's good, while others dislike it.

I'm not surprised to hear that the guitar strings are as well liked.

I've given one set of TI Jazz Flat Wound JF344 to my father for its Fender Jazz Bass and he is delighted.

Now, he wants to try these strings on its Ibanez Fretless and try TI Round Wound.

**hot ford coupe** · 09-05-2012, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would need string gauge over 12s on an electric guitar (or acoustic for that matter). While I spend most of my time these days trying to play jazz, I like to play blues occasionally, and I need to be able to bend and use a deep vibrato. Strings over 11s are a problem for me. I noticed, too, that string tensions on T-I 11 Swings are the same as the D'A 11s w/w3rd, and less than Chrome 11s.

The String Guy on Pyramid Strings

In my opinion, you're right in that you really don't need anything over .012s for electric playing. I also think that you don't need anything over .011s for electric only. In fact, the only reason I would use .012s for electric is because I'm used to a heavier string from the acoustic archtops I play and anything less feels too loose for me. That results in me squeezing the finger board too hard whch bends the notes out of tune.

As far as the strictly acoustic archtop is concerned, a heavier string with greater tension will vibrate the top better, will be louder and will have a richer tone which is the effect you're looking for. That's why .010s sound thin and weak. They just don't have the mass and tension to vibrate that top.

When it comes to playing an acoustic electric, that's where you have a little leeway. I use .013s because they give me more of the acoustic character of the guitar when I play it amplified which is the sound I'm looking for. Now I must emphasize that's my opinion and my opinion only. I don't expect anyone else to feel the same way or have the same taste in sound because that's what I like. You have to use the right tool for the job. Like my father always used to say "never use a hammer for a screw driver. It may work sometimes but you'll generally wind up with a mess".

Edit: Hey zigzag, I forgot to thank you for putting up that tension chart. Now I can see why the TIs feel so much better than the Chromes. The tension difference between the two sets is 27 pounds.

**Philco** · 09-05-2012, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone would need string gauge over 12s on an electric guitar (or acoustic for that matter). While I spend most of my time these days trying to play jazz, I like to play blues occasionally, and I need to be able to bend and use a deep vibrato. Strings over 11s are a problem for me. I noticed, too, that string tensions on T-I 11 Swings are the same as the D'A 11s w/w3rd, and less than Chrome 11s.

The String Guy on Pyramid Strings

For balance and for sound and for pick resistance. If you are sweep picking across the the first 3 strings it's helpful if they don't move to much and let the pick push past freely.
I use a .014 as a first and note that Pat Martino for a time used a .016 first back in the day.
Heavier treble strings are easier to pick and the extra gauge seems to make no difference in how hard one has to depress the string. At least not if you have a moderate action.
Makes it almost impossible to bend strings though. But I don't do that at all any more. Not on my Jazz box anyway.

Heavier bass strings are a different story for me. There seems to be a critical mass that if exceeded causes the bass strings to produce a strange out of tune sound on the higher frets. Anything past the 10th fret. Kind of goes..."plunk" and has some nasty harmonics in there.
The heavier Benson Flat strings do that for me except when they are very new. The Swings don't exhibit this behaviour even after a few weeks of playing.
If you are using a heavy pick and really heavy bass strings it's hard to be articulate on the higher frets.
No wonder George Benson favours a light pick when using heavy strings.
That sound of the pick attack really can clean things up in the higher regions when playing "across string" passages on the bass strings.

That's just my observations though. I haven't heard anyone else complain about the "ping" from heavy flatwounds played higher on the neck.

One great advantage of roundwounds of course. They don't do this at all.

The string angle across the bridge really plays a part in that sound as well as does muting that section of strings from the tailpiece to the bridge.

My L5 sound pretty good on the higher frets but my Painter P16 has much less bridge angle and suffers from the dreaded "plunk" on the bass strings.

The bridge is already adjusted all the way down to achieve a playable action....quite a bit higher than the L5..... so there's not much I can do about it. I did fit a much heavier tailpiece ( a 175 tailpiece) and that added mass really helped the situation.
Everything else about that guitar sounds wonderful though.

**PTChristopher** · 09-05-2012, 08:14 PM

Hi Philco,

>>> There seems to be a critical mass that if exceeded causes the bass strings to produce a strange out of tune sound on the higher frets. Anything past the 10th fret. Kind of goes..."plunk" and has some nasty harmonics in there.

In my view this is not from mass but from stiffness. You are very accurately describing two (arguably three) effects from the stiffness of the strings becoming a practical problem.

As you fret higher up the board, the absolute length of string affected by this stiffness becomes a larger relative length affected by the stiffness.

>>> has some nasty harmonics in there.

Inharmonicity is the geek term. It is why pianos are "stretch tuned", and why guitar strings can get way ugly when they are extremely stiff and played up the FB.

In my opinion.

Chris

**Jonathan0996** · 09-05-2012, 08:18 PM

I've never tried the Benson strings. Can somebody explain the difference between them and the TI Swing?

**Philco** · 09-05-2012, 08:22 PM

Yeah I think you're right about that. It makes sense. The string is short and rigid. It's going to have a hard time vibrating.
Perhaps the lower tension of the TI strings actually improve this situation?

I also wonder about the angle of the strings over the bridge.
I've always thought that this changes the feel of the string tension.
The more angle...the firmer the feel.
The less angle.....the more banjo effect...less tension.
Just my imagination or is there some basis in physics involved?

**Philco** · 09-05-2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jonathan0996

I've never tried the Benson strings. Can somebody explain the difference between them and the TI Swing?

The Swings are brighter....much brighter. But not nasty bright. Kind of a little twangy bright. Then they settle down and seem to bring out the acoustic side of the instrument.

The Bensons are more a traditional flatwound in that they are fairly mellow from the outset.

They are both silky smooth to play.
The Swings are more silver in colour.
I know it's crazy but they really make the guitar look great!

**PTChristopher** · 09-05-2012, 08:43 PM

On tension:

[Philco] >>> I also wonder about the angle of the strings over the bridge.
>>> I've always thought that this changes the feel of the string tension.

For all practical purposes, the break angle over the bridge has no effect on string tension, or the perceived "tension" as you move a string to fret or bend.

This goes against thousands (and thousands) of reported experiences on Les Pauls. But it also is easy to test with a simple spring scale - so much for the thousands of reported experiences,...

Under some very unusual circumstances with marginal bridge saddle friction and EXTREMELY long lengths of string between the bridge and tailpiece, it is almost conceivable that break angle could have a minor effect.

>>> The more angle...the firmer the feel.
>>> The less angle.....the more banjo effect...less tension.

I understand your description, but it is almost impossible to get this to happen on a real guitar anyway.

>>> Just my imagination or is there some basis in physics involved?

Playing a guitar is a complex exercise. We make all sorts of subtle adjustments with both hands to keep it from sounding like a complete mess. So it is more than understandable that we sometimes get possibly confused about very small details of the feel of playing.

In my opinion.

Chris

**Philco** · 09-05-2012, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

On tension:

[Philco] >>> I also wonder about the angle of the strings over the bridge.
>>> I've always thought that this changes the feel of the string tension.

For all practical purposes, the break angle over the bridge has no effect on string tension, or the perceived "tension" as you move a string to fret or bend.

This goes against thousands (and thousands) of reported experiences on Les Pauls. But it also is easy to test with a simple spring scale - so much for the thousands of reported experiences,...

Under some very unusual circumstances with marginal bridge saddle friction and EXTREMELY long lengths of string between the bridge and tailpiece, it is almost conceivable that break angle could have a minor effect.

>>> The more angle...the firmer the feel.
>>> The less angle.....the more banjo effect...less tension.

I understand your description, but it is almost impossible to get this to happen on a real guitar anyway.

>>> Just my imagination or is there some basis in physics involved?

Playing a guitar is a complex exercise. We make all sorts of subtle adjustments with both hands to keep it from sounding like a complete mess. So it is more than understandable that we sometimes get possibly confused about very small details of the feel of playing.

In my opinion.

Chris

I can't tell you the amount of Gibson 335, , 355 and SG's we ripped vibrato arms off and fitted stud tailpieces to back in my retail music shop days.

So the guitar would have better "tension" and "sustain"

Always requested by the customer of course.
But WE believed it improved these things. Oh well

We also fell for the brass nut crap as well!

**PTChristopher** · 09-05-2012, 09:28 PM

>>>I can't tell you the amount of Gibson 335, , 355 and SG's we ripped vibrato arms off and fitted stud tailpieces to back in my retail music shop days.

>>> So the guitar would have better "tension" and "sustain"

Ooooh. That is sort of a different matter, the Bigsby.

The tension of the strings is not affected by the Bigsby. Really.

But the change in tension as the strings are fretted and bent is affected by the Bigsby spring. The strings will fell like they have less tension as the Bigs spring yields a bit, and this can be measured and proven easily.

It has nothing to do with the break angle.

BUT, there were also some absurd Bigs installations with so little break angle over the bridge that there could be saddle rattling and other unpleasant manifestations. But again, this is not due to a difference in string tension.

It gets confusing.

>>> Always requested by the customer of course.
>>> But WE believed it improved these things. Oh well

There were and are some really awful Bigsby setups, so you probably did some actual good.

I think it was during my first week of genuine pro luthiating (so I was maybe 19) that a guy brought in an SG where he was getting rid of the Bigsby and going to a stop TP. He had very competent looking masking tape on the top marked and showing where he needed it drilled and stud inserts installed. He would handle everything except drilling and pressing in the inserts.

So I drilled.

Then I noticed that his marks were way off. I mean so far that I should have seen it from across the room.

That was my first and last "collaboration" with someone who just walked through a door. I can make my own goof-ups, so I need no extra help.

>>> We also fell for the brass nut crap as well!

Same era.

Chris

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 09-05-2012, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by ruger9

I'm a newcomer as well, and not to hijack your thread (because it's pertinent, I think), if you don't mind...

WHY are the TI strings so popular for jazz over standard electric strings? What is it about them and jazz that apparently mix so well together? I play plain ol' GHS Boomers on all my electrics, have for 25 years, and have no plans to change. Including on my Grestch hollowbody. But I got the Epiphone Broadway and immediately put TI (rounds) on it, mostly because of all the raves here. I do like them, but it begs the question- "what do the TIs got that 'regular' electric strings don't"?

Eventually, I'll answer my own question when I change my strings, but I figured alot of guys here would already have their answer. Would love to hear it.

Hi Ruger,

Everything is a compromise and depends on taste of course. I've tried tons of strings and kept coming back to the George Bensons on one guitar and the Swings on another. I like tone I get - mellow and clear with a clean attack. Obviously YMMV. Also, for me the TIs last last longer - again everyone's body chemistry is different so YMMV. BTW, one thing the TIs have that some other strings do not is a high nickel content.

**HighSpeedSpoon** · 09-05-2012, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jonathan0996

I've never tried the Benson strings. Can somebody explain the difference between them and the TI Swing?

I agree with Philco about the mellow aspect. Also, the gauges are different. For example, the GB112 run 012 - 053 and the Swing 112 run 012 - 050.

**2bornot2bop** · 09-05-2012, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

For balance and for sound and for pick resistance. If you are sweep picking across the the first 3 strings it's helpful if they don't move to much and let the pick push past freely.
I use a .014 as a first and note that Pat Martino for a time used a .016 first back in the day.
Heavier treble strings are easier to pick and the extra gauge seems to make no difference in how hard one has to depress the string. At least not if you have a moderate action.
Makes it almost impossible to bend strings though. But I don't do that at all any more. Not on my Jazz box anyway.

Heavier bass strings are a different story for me. There seems to be a critical mass that if exceeded causes the bass strings to produce a strange out of tune sound on the higher frets. Anything past the 10th fret. Kind of goes..."plunk" and has some nasty harmonics in there.
The heavier Benson Flat strings do that for me except when they are very new. The Swings don't exhibit this behaviour even after a few weeks of playing.
If you are using a heavy pick and really heavy bass strings it's hard to be articulate on the higher frets.
No wonder George Benson favours a light pick when using heavy strings.
That sound of the pick attack really can clean things up in the higher regions when playing "across string" passages on the bass strings.

That's just my observations though. I haven't heard anyone else complain about the "ping" from heavy flatwounds played higher on the neck.

One great advantage of roundwounds of course. They don't do this at all.

The string angle across the bridge really plays a part in that sound as well as does muting that section of strings from the tailpiece to the bridge.

My L5 sound pretty good on the higher frets but my Painter P16 has much less bridge angle and suffers from the dreaded "plunk" on the bass strings.

The bridge is already adjusted all the way down to achieve a playable action....quite a bit higher than the L5..... so there's not much I can do about it. I did fit a much heavier tailpiece ( a 175 tailpiece) and that added mass really helped the situation.
Everything else about that guitar sounds wonderful though.

14's. I rest my case.

**oldane** · 09-06-2012, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

I can't tell you the amount of Gibson 335, , 355 and SG's we ripped vibrato arms off and fitted stud tailpieces to back in my retail music shop days.

So the guitar would have better "tension" and "sustain"

Always requested by the customer of course.
But WE believed it improved these things. Oh well

We also fell for the brass nut crap as well!

The pitch of a tuned string is a function of the tension of the string. There's one and only one tension at which a given string at a given length will play at a given pitch. The higher the tension, the higher the pitch. The break angle doesn't affect this.

Anyway, let's for a moment assume - falsely - that the break angle does affect the string tension. If we increased the break angle and thereby the tension (which still won't happen in real life), the pitch would sharpen, and we would have to slacken the strings (= decrease the tension) at the tuner to get it back in tune.

**jazzbow** · 09-06-2012, 05:19 AM

Just to quickly comment on the break angle of strings over bridges and nuts, too little and you can get unwanted harmonics, especially on Fender flat style heads.

This week on the bench was a Jazz Bass with tuning and buzzing issues. The customer had fallen into the 'start the string wind at the bottom and finish at the top' Safe-t-tuner malaise!
This wasn't an issue with the D & G string as the string retainer applies enough break angle but the A string had an overtone when plucked as an open A note.

Here's the rewound strings, note the change in angle.

With this Mex Strat we see D & G practically on a flat plane compared to the other strings

And after second retainer was installed

It's not how you 'Lay it on' but it's the 'Angle of attack' that gets results.....Apparently.

**oldane** · 09-06-2012, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by jazzbow

Just to quickly comment on the break angle of strings over bridges and nuts, too little and you can get unwanted harmonics, especially on Fender flat style heads.

I'm a great admirer of Leo Fenders designs, but with the pegheads his frugality got the better of him (reportedly he designed the pegheads that way to save wood). When I put together my partscaster from Warmoth parts, I choose a neck with a Strat shape peghead but it is "laid back" in the normal non-Fender way to avoid those string trees and ensure a more optimal break angle at the nut.

**hot ford coupe** · 09-06-2012, 10:13 AM

I always thought that the break angle on an archtop at the bridge had more to do with the pressure on the top and therefore had to do with the vibration of the top. What is the actual effect the break angle has on the sound? Is it for tone, volume, harmonics, or what? Thanks in advance for the info.

**oldane** · 09-06-2012, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by hot ford coupe

I always thought that the break angle on an archtop at the bridge had more to do with the pressure on the top and therefore had to do with the vibration of the top. What is the actual effect the break angle has on the sound? Is it for tone, volume, harmonics, or what? Thanks in advance for the info.

The more acute the break angle over the bridge, the greater the downward pressure on the top - which may or may not mean something to the tone and volume of the guitar (depending of the guitar in question and it's design). Earlier on, Gibson delivered L5s and Super400s with heigth adjustable tailpieces, but I doubt it had had any significant effect on sound and volume. Some said it affected the tension of the strings, but IMHO that is rubbish (see my post above about this).