Nitro finish restoration

**Groyniad** · 07-20-2012, 03:49 PM

Anyone else discovered the extraordinary results you get with Zymol Wax Cleaner?

**PTChristopher** · 07-20-2012, 04:18 PM

Yep. I loves me some Zymol. Great stuff. No downsides as far as I can tell. No build-up. Finish repairs are problem-free.

I can not figure out what it smells like. Coconutbananalime, or something like that.

But yes, great stuff on lacquer finishes.

Chris

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2012, 01:31 AM

Glad someone knows about it.

I tried hard and failed - very aggravatingly - with several often praised products to do what I did almost effortlessly with this lovely stuff.

If you get a nearly newish guitar but its covered in light finish damage this will make it look gloriously brand new in about five minutes.

The smell is so cool - tropical and fresh.

**rpguitar** · 07-21-2012, 06:51 AM

What kind of "light finish damage" benefits from this product? Swirls? Scuffs? Haze? General lackluster appearance? I'd appreciate some more specifics - thanks.

**PTChristopher** · 07-21-2012, 07:58 AM

Hi Roger,

Just to clarify my comment:

>>> Finish repairs are problem-free.

I meant that the Zymol "Cleaner Wax" did not cause any sort of trouble with lacquer touch ups on a guitar after using the Zymol.

I did not mean that Zymol actually did any sort of finish repair.

In my opinion, Zymol is great as a final polish to a lacquer finish. For swirls it is best to go with the ultra-fine compounds from the various usual sources. I am happy with Meguiar's SCRATCH X 2.0

Chris

**jazzbow** · 07-21-2012, 09:01 AM

'Zymol Wax Cleaner,' 'Meguiar's SCRATCH X 2.0.'
Boy, youse guys has lots of stuff over there!

Here in Britland we can only dream of such stuff.

**PTChristopher** · 07-21-2012, 02:22 PM

We pay a heavy social and indirect $$$ price for what is commercially available here.

But yeah, for a DIY or experimentally-minded person, life is easier here than Europe.

If you think they will get through customs, PM me and I'll send along some of each type of magic goo. You can almost drink Zymol, so hardly hazardous.

Chris

**Jabberwocky** · 07-21-2012, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

We pay a heavy social and indirect $$$ price for what is commercially available here....

Now you're getting political.

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

You can almost drink Zymol, so hardly hazardous.

Chris

I read it on the web that it tastes like Pina Colada.

But thanks for the recommendation. I had been meaning to try it but demurred. Used Furniture Beeswax in Turpentine instead. Too much elbow grease required to buff the top although the shine is great and it doesn't feel obviously "waxy". I only wax the top and the back of the neck because I am a lazy sod.

**PTChristopher** · 07-21-2012, 02:42 PM

>>> Now you're getting political.

Yep. Pretty tired of the trigger-happy ass-hat vibe of late.

But I do like that I can drive to any NAPA store and get the Scratch-X 2.0, and a NASCAR hat too.

Ooops.

>>> I read it on the web that it tastes like Pina Colada.

With it so undangerous, there is no real info on the MSDS sheet about contents. It is a weird, but not unpleasant smell.

It does have a quirk vs. a carnauba (or other typical) wax. You do not let it partly dry. Rather, you just get it on there and wipe it on/in/off all at once.

A bottle is a HUGE supply.

Chris

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2012, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

What kind of "light finish damage" benefits from this product? Swirls? Scuffs? Haze? General lackluster appearance? I'd appreciate some more specifics - thanks.

Very light finish damage is totally cured by this product. So hazing (millions of tiny tiny scratches only visible from certain angles) and very fine finish scratches of the type often found on the backs of guitars. I've tried all the big name brands - most notably Virtuoso and Novus no. 2 - but they came NOWHERE NEAR the level of AMAZING effectiveness of this brand.

I would pay four and five times what they want for this produce to get these results (but I'm sad, of course).

Total magic for expensive nitro finish guitars.

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2012, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by jazzbow

'Zymol Wax Cleaner,' 'Meguiar's SCRATCH X 2.0.'
Boy, youse guys has lots of stuff over there!

Here in Britland we can only dream of such stuff.

I'm from Britland but I live in Yankland. I don't know what you can get at home and what is only available here. If you want super glass like finish with your nitro guitars you should get some Zymol through ebay or something. I need to know if its not possible because I'll have to try to bring some home with me (when I finally get away from this utterly wonderful country.)

**Groyniad** · 07-21-2012, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

>>> Now you're getting political.

Yep. Pretty tired of the trigger-happy ass-hat vibe of late.

But I do like that I can drive to any NAPA store and get the Scratch-X 2.0, and a NASCAR hat too.

Ooops.

>>> I read it on the web that it tastes like Pina Colada.

With it so undangerous, there is no real info on the MSDS sheet about contents. It is a weird, but not unpleasant smell.

It does have a quirk vs. a carnauba (or other typical) wax. You do not let it partly dry. Rather, you just get it on there and wipe it on/in/off all at once.

A bottle is a HUGE supply.

Chris

Not unpleasant! I had to stop myself from tasting it! It smells gorgeous.

**Jabberwocky** · 07-21-2012, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

Not unpleasant! I had to stop myself from tasting it! It smells gorgeous.

A peg (or two) of Smirnoff's, a peg of Zymol, grape juice, a dash of Angostura bitters, ice cubes. Shake, don't stir. Pour into long tall tumbler. Garnish with a stick of celery and the requisite paper umbrella.

Royal Bloody Mary.

**morbo** · 07-21-2012, 03:49 PM

'Zymol Wax Cleaner,' 'Meguiar's SCRATCH X 2.0.'
are both available from a certain car accessory shop H****ords and even cheaper from some of the car detailing supply companies. Hope this helps. I've used Collinite 915 wax on my bass before now - smells quite yummy afterwards.

**Patrick2** · 07-21-2012, 04:06 PM

I've great success with Virtuoso Cleaner and Polish. Is this zymol stuff better?

**jazzbow** · 07-21-2012, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by morbo

'Zymol Wax Cleaner,' 'Meguiar's SCRATCH X 2.0.'
are both available from a certain car accessory shop H****ords and even cheaper from some of the car detailing supply companies. Hope this helps. I've used Collinite 915 wax on my bass before now - smells quite yummy afterwards.

Wow! Harrords of Knightsbridge, bloody expensive tho'

I live in what has been described recently by UNESCO as 'Scotlands unique biosphere' which roughly translates as no shops and lots of green.

A day out for me is window shopping at Halfords (130 mile round trip!), man I need to get a life!

Seriously though, thanks for the heads up, next time I'm that way I'll get some.

**morbo** · 07-21-2012, 05:08 PM

Oh sh**t too many stars - so much for being subtle. Polished Bliss is in Aberdeen (well Kintore anyway) they have some cool car stuff.
I have recently been hearing some really good stuff about the Virtuoso product that Patrick has mentioned. It is apparently aimed specifically at guitar finishes. I am a little bit lucky in the respect that a local 'box shifting' guitar shop sells the stuff (I try to avoid going in there because the attitude of the staff is not favourable unless you are 14 and in to death thrash noise), £28 including postage for the cleaner and polish (£15 each). If I get some you are welcome to a sample to try.

**Groyniad** · 07-30-2012, 05:08 PM

Okay - after yet more finish restoration work (read - really sad messing with guitar when should be playing) I want to refine my description of Zymol for the record.

It is indeed absolutely fabulous - the question is - at what precisely?

I now think I was wrong to say 'scratch removal'. Anything big enough to count as a scratch will not be touched by this product. For that you need a scratch removal product - what a world we live in eh!

It sort of helps with hazing (which is lots of super-tiny scratches - say around vol. and tone controls or as the result of over-zealous and insufficiently expert polishing!). But this is still not quit right.

So what does Zymol do? It makes your guitar shine! oh yes. Better than any polish I've used before (including the much vaunted Virtuoso). It is a gorgeous shine. I'm such a shine-my-new-guitar-freak I might sell some bits of my mother to achieve this shine (note, none of the important parts).

What about 'swirls'? Well - your swirl is somewhere in between your scratch and your haze. Swirls are typically the results of poor polishing.

Tough call - because you're so blown away by the shine you may fail to notice that the swirls are still there. Maybe not so swirly - but they are still there. Does it matter? Hey that's up to you guys (and me). Now I've had the guitar for over a week - and now it is zymol shiny - I think it might not matter enough to me. But if it did - I could check out that McGuires stuff etc. etc.

Be safe out there!

**PTChristopher** · 07-30-2012, 05:30 PM

Hi Groy',

Thanks for stepping back in off the ledge of possibly excess ecstasy on the Zymol.

Indeed it is a sort of polish and not a scratch and swirl remover. But in my opinion there is a little more to it than that.

A nitrocellulose lacquer finish does not "cure".

No.

I know that you see "cure" written on occasion, but the lacquer dries. The solvent evaporates, and the solids remain, but do not cross-link they way they do in a polyurethane (for example).

This is good news and bad news. I'll spare the long story (mock cheer is heard in the background,...).

For our purposes, it means you can rub the lacquer enough to actually move it around a bit. So even if the Zymol has no abrasive action, you can actually soften the appearance of swirls a bit through elbow grease. But go easy anyway.

If the Zymol won't do the job, I'd go the Meguiar's Scratch X 2.0 as a very mild polishing compound. It will grind the finish slightly and also assist in moving the lacquer slightly. Works great.

If that is not enough, I use 3M Perfect-It 3000 (not the "fast" cut) rubbing compound. But now you are getting serious. I would not suggest this unless you really have a good feel for how a finish is rubbed out.

These same goops (3m Perfect-It 300, Meguiar's Scratch X 2.0, and Zymol "Cleaner Wax") all work great on urethane finishes as well (and cars too, which should be no surprise) - but the feel is MUCH different than on lacquer.

On a truly "cured" finish, you can't really move the molecules around. You must use the compounds to actually cut to remove all scratches, swirls, and haze.

So if you rub out your lacquer finish and it looks great, then your cousin Vic (or Ernie, or Spud,...) asks you to rub out his polyurethane (or polyester, or catalyzed acrylic) finish - think twice about saying yes. It will be harder to do in some ways.

All in my opinion.

Chris

**Groyniad** · 07-30-2012, 06:26 PM

Hey - sounds like a pretty expert opinion! (and we do believe they're possible right? - hope so)

Fascinating details there from PTC. I might try the McGuire thing - but I do have a pretty damn shiny guitar already!

I'll avoid the 'perfect-it 300' stuff. Sounds out of my league.

**PTChristopher** · 07-30-2012, 07:25 PM

>>> sounds like a pretty expert opinion!

All the more reason for skepticism.

**Patrick2** · 07-30-2012, 07:44 PM

I wonder how many nitro finishes were damaged beyond repair by those who insist on making an old guitar look new.?.? For those who are such eccentrics . . . like myself . . . my suggestion would be take the guitar to someone skilled in finishing and refinishing guitars . . . and has the appropriate buffing wheel and buffing stick to do the job correctly. Have them remove all of the hardware and buff it out . . . finishing it with a nice soft dry buff.

Everytime I bring one of my guitars to Aaron to be buffed out he gets this real scrunched up look on his face . . . turns away from me and mutters . . . "if ya don't want it to look like it's been played, then stop playing it". But, when he reassembles it . . . it looks like it just came out of the box brand spanking new.

**Klatu** · 08-15-2012, 03:22 PM

Are you thinning out the finish each time you have it buffed out?

**PTChristopher** · 08-15-2012, 03:30 PM

Yes. But,...

As mentioned earlier, with nitrocellulose lacquer, you do get a little bit of movement of the lacquer itself as you buff and polish it.

So while rubbing, buffing, polishing a polyurethane finish always requires removal of material to the depth of the scratches, a nitrocellulose finish can be buffed and polished back to a nice gloss while removing an very small amount of material.

Now for a very old and brittle-formula lacquer, you can expect to have to remove more material than with the relatively more flexible formulas we use these days.

So:

>>> Are you thinning out the finish each time you have it buffed out?

Yes. But to an extremely small extent if you are careful.

Still, I am more in the "play the guitar" camp. It will get a lived-in look.

All in my opinion.

EDIT - definitions in my opinion and personal use of the words:

Rubbing: Using an abrasive compound to remove fine but slightly visible sanding or playing scratches.

Buffing: Using an extremely fine, but slightly abrasive, compound (on a cloth or buffing wheel) to remove swirls, haze, and other artifacts not individually visible.

Polishing: No abrasive used. A final surface treatment to reach maximum gloss and sometimes to apply a protective (arguable at best) finish on top of the lacquer.

Chris

**Patrick2** · 08-15-2012, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

Yes. But,...

As mentioned earlier, with nitrocellulose lacquer, you do get a little bit of movement of the lacquer itself as you buff and polish it.

So while rubbing, buffing, polishing a polyurethane finish always requires removal of material to the depth of the scratches, a nitrocellulose finish can be buffed and polished back to a nice gloss while removing an very small amount of material.

Now for a very old and brittle-formula lacquer, you can expect to have to remove more material than with the relatively more flexible formulas we use these days.

So:

>>> Are you thinning out the finish each time you have it buffed out?

Yes. But to an extremely small extent if you are careful.

Still, I am more in the "play the guitar" camp. It will get a lived-in look.

All in my opinion.

EDIT - definitions in my opinion and personal use of the words:

Rubbing: Using an abrasive compound to remove fine but slightly visible sanding or playing scratches.

Buffing: Using an extremely fine, but slightly abrasive, compound (on a cloth or buffing wheel) to remove swirls, haze, and other artifacts not individually visible.

Polishing: No abrasive used. A final surface treatment to reach maximum gloss and sometimes to apply a protective (arguable at best) finish on top of the lacquer.

Chris

Perfectly stated, as usual Chris. The operative word in your explaination of buffing was "careful". With a good buffing wheel, a stick of buffing compound, a muscular techincian with too much time on his hands and no focus on what he's doing . . . he could easily remove ALL of the nitro and expose bare wood.

One of the forum members here just sent me a PM with pictures of a very pretty guitar, where all of the finish was buffed off in a realtively small area. As you know, it's a pretty easy fix. But, it's time consuming and as such quite costly.