Anyone got a pinned bridge? Why not?

[dfoo]

Why not? It pops off leaving a tiny spot of super glue on the surface...

[PTChristopher]

>>> Why not? It pops off

Well as someone who has dealt with too many amateur-night guitar messes with super glue, the "why not" reasons are many. I'll just throw out a few:

- Most buyers would steer clear of a guitar with a glued down bridge base, and for good reasons in my opinion. I would go further and say that non-disclosure of this maneuver, would be a serious misrepresentation. (I have never bought an archtop without giving the base a very slight shift, just to check the situation.

- Most super glue users have absolutely no idea how the stuff works. Remarkable mistakes are common.

- Even with the best of intentions, "It" often fails to "pops off".

- CA (super glue) softens nitrocellulose lacquer. The CA can cure, but the lacquer can stay soft for many (many, many, many) days thereafter.

In the "to each his own" department:

If one really wants to glue a bridge base down, then choose a glue that will only provide a weak mechanical bind (no burn-in) to the base and the top.

There are several variations on white (PVA) glue that will do this.

All in my opinion.

Man, of all web places to keep finding "problems" with archtop bridge mounting,...

Chris

[Gramps]

Or you could sink a couple of drywall screws through it. That should hold the
%$#^ in place. ;-)

[PTChristopher]

Maybe to take this back to the beginning and try to sort it out?

Many Gretsch guitars are a quirky (but beloved by their be-lovers) mix of design aspects and components. A shallow break angle over the bridge, a Bigsby, and a particular playing style combine to sometimes bring the quirky combination of features into focus of some players.

Fine, so fix it if it is a problem for you.

Admire the "pinned" bridge if it floats one's boat (but not one's bridge,...).

Now,...

Why this Gretsch experience somehow burdens the rest of the earth to come to account for their non-pinned, non-glued, non-screwed, bridge bases is beyond me.

As for string changes, if anything other than all-at-once is a big problem for a person, then I guess you need to fix the base to the top,...

OR

Simply understand how your bridge is positioned and how to simply set it back into position.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[bborzell]

I can't believe that anyone would super glue a bridge to a top when perfectly serviceable square head wood screws are readily available. And, they are very easy to remove with your gun tool kit (assuming you add a square head driver to the kit).

[oldane]

Or you could sink a couple of drywall screws through it. That should hold the
%$#^ in place. ;-)

The string pressure holds it in place. And if it should become displaced (for example after a fretboard cleaning with all the string off), it not rocket science to find the right place for it afterwards. And if it presents a problem, mark the place with low tack tape before removing the bridge.

Why this Gretsch experience somehow burdens the rest of the earth to come to account for their non-pinned, non-glued, non-screwed, bridge bases is beyond me.

As for string changes, if anything other than all-at-once is a big problem for a person, then I guess you need to fix the base to the top,...

Yep. I have played archtops for 45 years and it has never - before I read about it on this forum - occurred to me that I might have a need to fix the bridge to the top by anything but the string pressure. So maybe I don't have that need. The KISS principle works just fine for me here too.

[Gramps]

Yes, I know.

[dfoo]

I wouldn't personally do it, but my ES-175 when I bought it (used) came with the bridge fixed in position with a small drop of CA. The first time I changed the strings I popped it off and repositioned it when done. To me it was no big deal. Its not like you can see the CA or that it put a hole in the lacquer.

[PTChristopher]

dfoo,

Good to hear that your particular experience worked out well for you.

[bborzell] >>> perfectly serviceable square head wood screws are readily available.

Do I need the pneumatic driver or will my Dewalt impact driver be enough?

Chris

[Spook410]

Yes, I know.

So.. you didn't see the forum guideline about raising your left hand when you're kidding?

[oldane]

Yes, I know.

Sorry. While I think my English as such is passable (well, I hope it is), I'm not too familiar with all the English words for tools and screws, so I missed the joke. It has happened to me before on this forum.

[Gramps]

So.. you didn't see the forum guideline about raising your left hand when you're kidding?

I did add a smiley though.

[Gramps]

Sorry. While I think my English as such is passable (well, I hope it is), I'm not too familiar with all the English words for tools and screws, so I missed the joke. It has happened to me before on this forum.

Your language skills are great. It's my sense of humor that can be lacking.

[ruger9]

Why this Gretsch experience somehow burdens the rest of the earth to come to account for their non-pinned, non-glued, non-screwed, bridge bases is beyond me.



Chris

I don't read anyone implying anything of the kind.

All I see in this thread are the "non-pinners" berating those who have experience (and like) fixed bridges. As if there is a right or wrong answer (which there isn't.) It's a question of preference.

I simply asked for opinions and experiences, unfortunately many of them were provided with an "I'm-so-superior" attitude. Shame.

I like the pinned bridge. I'll continue to use it. I see no detriments at all, only positives. But I will never act like those who don't pin their bridges are somehow ...ignorant, wrong, stupid, foolish, etc. You want to keep yours floating? Fine.

[PTChristopher]

Thanks for the comforting thoughts.

[ruger9]

Thanks for the comforting thoughts.

...and theeeeere's the attitude. Have a nice day, sir.

[LtKojak]

All I see in this thread are the "non-pinners" berating those who have experience (and like) fixed bridges. As if there is a right or wrong answer (which there isn't.) It's a question of preference.

Actually, there is. Only a well-seated bridge can provide right intonation. But it seems that many just oversee this (for them) "small" detail.

I simply asked for opinions and experiences, unfortunately many of them were provided with an "I'm-so-superior" attitude. Shame.

This makes me come to mind an experience I had with a "Tele player". I was setting up the intonation in a customer's Tele and he goes:

"Why in earth anybody would want to mess with a Tele bridge? That's what makes a Tele to rightfully sound like a Tele".

"What do you mean by that?" said I.

"I mean, a Tele's NOT SUPPOSED TO INTONATE".

It took a very big effort on my part to keep a straight face...

I like the pinned bridge. I'll continue to use it. I see no detriments at all, only positives. But I will never act like those who don't pin their bridges are somehow ...ignorant, wrong, stupid, foolish, etc. You want to keep yours floating? Fine.

+ 1. And I'm pretty sure most of those with $ 6,000 and up instruments never had their instruments checked for intonation over the whole fretboard with a Peterson strobe... they'll be surprised how off they are and how little they're able to hear it... or let's say how "accomodating" the human ear is.

[oldane]

Actually, there is. Only a well-seated bridge can provide right intonation.

.......

+ 1. And I'm pretty sure most of those with $ 6,000 and up instruments never had their instruments checked for intonation over the whole fretboard with a Peterson strobe... they'll be surprised how off they are and how little they're able to hear it... or let's say how "accomodating" the human ear is.

We agree on this. It's just that I don't see how pinning/gluing as such can ensure correct intonation. It's the position of the bridge, not the pinning, which ensures the correct intonation (or as close as it's possible to come). Pinning will of course ensure that a bridge stays in a specific position - which is hopefully the one in which it intonates correctly with the given setup.

But what happens if the player - or a second hand buyer of the guitar - decides to swap brand and/or gauge of strings, decides to raise or lower the action or change the relief of the neck? Then the bridge position needs to be changed a bit to ensure correct intonation with the new setup. And then the pinning of the bridge to that one and only position becomes a serious limitation. This is why I think the floating bridge of an archtop is better from an intonation point of view than the fixed bridge of a flattop. It offers greater freedom to choose a high action, a low action, lesser og more relief, greater variety of strings etc. But I agree, that I have to know how to determine where the correct position is.

A pinned/glued or otherwise fixed bridge base is a thing I will never accept on my own instruments for the reasons mentioned above. I can see the rationale of it with Bigsby tailpieces (but then I never cared much for Bigsby's either, and the first thing I did to my Strat when I got it was to block the "tremomo"). It may not present a big problem either if using a TOM bridge, but when using a wood bridge saddle it's very convenient to be able to move the bridge base a bit when changing strings/modifying the setup instead of carving a new bridge saddle.

By saying this I may risk being accused of being one of the "wise guys", who's putting others down. But I really do mean it. The original question was "why not a pinned bridge". I'll reverse it and ask "why a pinned bridge". I see the limitations but no benefits with a normal archtop the way I play it. (and yes, I have and use a Strobo tuner).

[PTChristopher]

To stay on the tech points vs. the social style,...

>>> Only a well-seated bridge can provide right intonation.

No, for several reasons.

- The bridge compensation is a significant part of acceptable intonation, but there are still many intonation errors despite "ideal" bridge compensation.

- Actually there is no ideal bridge compensation. There is a customary, traditional "best fit" compensation. It works just fine. But it is not perfect, even though it may be comforting to think so. It can be ironic to watch someone make a hyper-precise setting of the 12th fret note, but to do this with seemingly limited appreciation for the variables that are not being considered in this "foolish consistency". But again, it is a comforting illusion. It also works well enough, most of the time, to make it an enduring method.

- "well seated" is accomplished to the satisfaction of the design of many instruments without glue or mechanical fastening.

Yes, setting and maintaining bridge compensation is a very good practice for acceptable, but not perfect, intonation.

But it is often done poorly, albeit with "great precision" using a poor understanding of the whole picture which includes:

- the players fretting technique
- imperfections in the strings
- imperfections in the frets
- non-linearity of the needed compensation at the bridge
- intonation errors from nut position, nut height, and fret height (yes, it matters)
- and a few arguable, but really minor, other factors.

Chris

[Patrick2]

Further to PTChris' comments, once the bridge is pinned . . . you lose the flexibility of adjustment to compensate for those constantly fluctuating variables.


Edit . .. OOPS!! I see that oldane already addressed this.