Washburn J600 - Solid Spruce Top?

[MrWalker]

Hello, guys!
I'm new to the forum, but not new to music :-) I've been playing cello and bass guitar for 40 years, and been doing a lot of guitar playing, as well. I bought a Washburn J-600 archtop jazz guitar a couple of years ago, and I love to play it and think it's a great guitar for not a lot of money.
However, I would want it to sound a little warmer than it does now. It's got a somewhat sharp and clanky tone. I realize some of this is down to my playing style, which is fingerstyle (not plectrum so much), but maybe my attack is a little harder being a bass and upright bass player. But I still think I'm getting a warmer sound from my acoustics than I mange to get from this one.

As the first step, I was wanting to change strings. What are you guys using for strings on this type of guitar? I have a set of Pyramid Gypsy Jazz Django 011-046, could these be a good set of strings for this?

As the second step, if new strings doesn't yield a warmer sound, I could swap out the pickup. I'm assuming the stock pickup is a pretty cheap Asian affair, but there's obviously no guarantee that a better pickup will warm up the sound.

So, I would appreciate some insight in how to warm up my Washburn J-600! :-) Thanks for your time!

[jazzbow]

The gypsy jazz strings are crisp sounding and will sound quite harsh through a magnetic pickup.
If you want roundwound strings settle for pure nickel strings at a 12' gauge.
Flatwound are a good choice too.
The J600 has a spruce top which will add a noticeable crisp high frequency to the tone of the plain strings and it has a floating pickup which will let a lot of that high spruce frequency through.
Warm tone with a set in humbucker is the norm.
Another way to get a warm tone with a floating pickup is to change the value of the pots and capacitors.
I would try 500k linear volume and 250k logarithmic tone. Try a .022 Orange drop cap.
The problem is the mini humbucker is bright sounding.
I've put a floating single coil pickup on my Epi Emp Reg with great success.
Lastly what amp are you using? Drop the mids, boost the bass and add treble to taste.

[Runepune]

Mentioning "clancky" I'm thinking strings are too thin and/or action is too low. Methinks 011 is too thin for a 24-1/2" jazzbox. I use 013 on mine.

Regarding sharpness; make use of those controls on the guitar and amp. Try e.g. turning the tone control on the guitar far down and compensate on the amp etc. Even just nudging the guitar's volume down a bit will often soften the sound. Cables also make a difference. I posted a comparison here: Important stuff: picks & cords!

[MrWalker]

The gypsy jazz strings are crisp sounding and will sound quite harsh through a magnetic pickup.
If you want roundwound strings settle for pure nickel strings at a 12' gauge.
Flatwound are a good choice too.
The J600 has a spruce top which will add a noticeable crisp high frequency to the tone of the plain strings and it has a floating pickup which will let a lot of that high spruce frequency through.
Warm tone with a set in humbucker is the norm.
Another way to get a warm tone with a floating pickup is to change the value of the pots and capacitors.
I would try 500k linear volume and 250k logarithmic tone. Try a .022 Orange drop cap.
The problem is the mini humbucker is bright sounding.
I've put a floating single coil pickup on my Epi Emp Reg with great success.
Lastly what amp are you using? Drop the mids, boost the bass and add treble to taste.

Thank you!
To answer the last question first, I have two guitar amps, a Vox Valvetronix VT20 (I think it is) and a Laney Cub 10. They are probably not "ideal" for this type of guitar, but the Vox has a few amp models to choose from and I could play around with that one a little. The Laney is a great little amp, but probably not ideal for a jazz guitar.

I will stay clear of the gypsy strings, then!

The logic with regards to the pickup and top sounds reasonable. The guitar has a quite bright tone actoustically, so it makes sense what you are describing. So a reasonable fix could be to get a warm humbucker on it (the guitar isn't a collectible, so I have no hesitation in modding it for the sake of a better tone and a better guitar).

The pots are poor. When I roll the tone off, it softens up slightly as soon as you start, but 90% of the effect is on 5% of the pot, at the end of the rolloff. So I think changing pots could be a decent start.

I have seen there are a few floating humbucker pickups available (Kent Armstrong), would they be "sufficient" to warm up the sound, or is it required with a bigger and more traditional humbucker?

[MrWalker]

Mentioning "clancky" I'm thinking strings are too thin and/or action is too low. Methinks 011 is too thin for a 24-1/2" jazzbox. I use 013 on mine.

Regarding sharpness; make use of those controls on the guitar and amp. Try e.g. turning the tone control on the guitar far down and compensate on the amp etc. Even just nudging the guitar's volume down a bit will often soften the sound. Cables also make a difference. I posted a comparison here: Important stuff: picks & cords!

Yes, the action is quite low, I usually go for low action, but that might not be right for this type of guitar. I guess I should go to heavier gauge! :-)

The controls on the guitar help a lot, of course, and I have used them. But as mentioned above, I think they are poor quality and only "bites" in the last 5% of the roll. So might be a good idea to swap them out.
Thanks for the link, will read when I get home from work! :-)
Thanks!

[oldane]

Aside from what have already been mentioned: Where do you pick. Some pick fairly close to the bridge and compensate by turning down the tone knob to filter out highs. When I do this, the result is a compact, midrangy and somewhat muddy tone. For a classic 1950s amplified tone, I prefer to pick over the neck pickup and that way I get away with filtering out less treble which gives more clarity and richness to the tone while still keeping it warm and mellow. I find the picking position quite improtant for the tone. With a pointed pick, I can even get that strat like quack when picking a little closer towards the bridge than the neck pickup, even on a one pickup guitar.

[MrWalker]

Aside from what have already been mentioned: Where do you pick. Some pick fairly close to the bridge and compensate by turning down the tone knob to filter out highs. When I do this, the result is a compact, midrangy and somewhat muddy tone. For a classic 1950s amplified tone, I prefer to pick over the neck pickup and that way I get away with filtering out less treble which gives more clarity and richness to the tone while still keeping it warm and mellow. I find the picking position quite improtant for the tone. With a pointed pick, I can even get that strat like quack when picking a little closer towards the bridge than the neck pickup, even on a one pickup guitar.

I pick close to the neck area, and I use fingertips mostly (not nails), and sometimes a pick (depending on the music I'm playing). I get the warmest sound by plucking or strumming with my thumb, of course. So valid point and thanks for the input! :-)

[goldenwave77]

The pots are poor. When I roll the tone off, it softens up slightly as soon as you start, but 90% of the effect is on 5% of the pot, at the end of the rolloff. So I think changing pots could be a decent start.
?

It's not that the pots are poor, it's that this is how they are calibrated. There are two types of pots, normal and logarithmic, I think is the terminology. I forget the terminology, but one gives more of a range of adjustment.


I have an archtop that has the "sudden rolloff" at the end, but not much usability in between, tone adjustment profile. I agree that the design leaves something to be desired.

[Runepune]

There are two types of pots, linear and logarithmic, I think is the terminology. I forget the terminology, but one gives more of a range of adjustment.

Fixed

[plasticpigeon]

I would second trying thicker flat wound strings, they help the instrument to sound much less jangly. D'Addario 13s are easy enough to get hold of, and I like the Thomastik swing strings too, and of course there are other brands available.

[goldenwave77]

]Fixed [/B]

Yes, but which is which? That's the question.

[mr. beaumont]

What's the amp, and how is it set?

Heavier strings would be my first plan of attack. Gypsy strings will sound terrible on that guitar, try some flatwounds.

[TedBPhx]

I put a Benedetto S6 pickup on my Washburn J600 and replaced the pots with audio/logarithmic style. I used a .22uf cap as recommended by Benedetto. The Benedetto responds well to a variety of string type, chrome, nickel even bronze. My J600 came from the factory with no ground to the strings. A piece of copper tape under the tailpiece from the hinge to the string nut holder corrected that. Replacing the pots required drilling out the holes a little as the original pots had a small diameter shaft I was unable to find. I am happy with the resulting sound.

[Runepune]

Yes, but which is which? That's the question.

If it is in fact a linear tone pot in that guitar, he may try changing it to a log/audio pot.

[TedBPhx]

Also, my J600 has 25.5" scale neck.

[jazzbow]

Pots and what is the difference? This is how my giggle trumpet decrypts the meanings....

LINEAR = Ear lin(k) better for hearing the sweep of volume.
LOGARITHMIC = Log the arithmetic incremental sweep of tone

YMMV
IMHO
ETC.

[jazzbow]

So the laney 10 has 6V6 tubes which would be ideal for the task of amplifying your guitar.
You have to play about with the gain and volume to taste. Gain would boost the signal coming from the guitar so if its already harsh and clicky then it would do you no favours. Try everything at half way then dial back the gain and adjust the tone to lose the high frequencies. Also roll off the guitar volume to 7-8 and then set the guitar tone to cut the highs.
Now we should be near a warm tone.

Remember that the amp volume and gain play against each other and the guitar volume and tone do as well.

As I mentioned earlier up the thread I put a single coil onto my EER from a really old guitar complete with its 57 year old capacitor.


Vox single coil pickups.

So what's it sound like? The pickup sounds like the reissue De Armond on the new Gretsch New Yorker.
The capacitor is very subtle where it seems to cut out the highs and boost lows. But any old cap would do!

[MrWalker]

I put a Benedetto S6 pickup on my Washburn J600 and replaced the pots with audio/logarithmic style. I used a .22uf cap as recommended by Benedetto. The Benedetto responds well to a variety of string type, chrome, nickel even bronze. My J600 came from the factory with no ground to the strings. A piece of copper tape under the tailpiece from the hinge to the string nut holder corrected that. Replacing the pots required drilling out the holes a little as the original pots had a small diameter shaft I was unable to find. I am happy with the resulting sound.

This is what I was contemplating yesterday, using the Benedetto S6 and swap out the entire harness.

I don't understand how the copper tape fixes the ground issue? Is the hinge grounded? I don't think mine is grounded, either, as it has significant humming going on.

I will definitely change the strings before doing anything to the pickup, though. Stepwise is good. ☺️

So the laney 10 has 6V6 tubes which would be ideal for the task of amplifying your guitar.
You have to play about with the gain and volume to taste. Gain would boost the signal coming from the guitar so if its already harsh and clicky then it would do you no favours. Try everything at half way then dial back the gain and adjust the tone to lose the high frequencies. Also roll off the guitar volume to 7-8 and then set the guitar tone to cut the highs.
Now we should be near a warm tone.

Remember that the amp volume and gain play against each other and the guitar volume and tone do as well.

Thanks! I just did what you suggested, and it helps a great deal! I think that these suggestions of utilizing the amp better and changing the strings are the first steps for me. Pickup upgrade would be the next step.

Just wondering if the Benedetto is the best option, or whether it would be wise to get a more traditional humbucker installed?

I appreciate all the good input here! Thanks all!

[TedBPhx]

There is a wire going from a tailpiece mounting screw to the ground side of the jack.

[MrWalker]

Thanks! ☺️

[jazzbow]

Just wondering if the Benedetto is the best option, or whether it would be wise to get a more traditional humbucker installed?

I appreciate all the good input here! Thanks all!

Now there's a reason to buy another guitar!

Chasing that tone Dragon, jump off the tail before it drags you down into that money pit!
Lol.

[MrWalker]

Now there's a reason to buy another guitar!

Chasing that tone Dragon, jump off the tail before it drags you down into that money pit!
Lol.

Haha
Good point! 😂

But I did get the guitar cheap, and I do like it... So it justifies a little effort.

[goldenwave77]

You might try talking to Jon Dalton, an English jazz guitarist who has a website and is on YouTube.

He did a bunch of videos comparing/contrasting expensive guitars (L4's and L5's), and then I'm fairly certain that in a couple of them he talked about lower priced guitars that he played, and recorded with, with VERY good results. (He is a fine player.) I'm fairly certain one of them was a J600.

CORRECTION: Dalton played and talked about a j-10 model. So, different guitar. Calling Emily Latella.

[TedBPhx]

If I was going to do it again I'd use a humbucker with adjustable poles. But that guitar has had all the cash I'm going to put into it. Nice learning project.

[jazzbow]

Mr Walker, this has been put up before, and its just come to mind, but I thought you might get some insight into getting a warm sound from a MoR Aria jazzerwith a floating pickup.

Mr Jim Mullen.

It can be done. I'm guessing a tweak here and there will get you close to what you're after

Keep us posted!