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Ha I remember that. Tinny twangy things. Lots of ovations too.
Originally Posted by Greentone
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04-09-2015 09:27 PM
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True. Originally Posted by Spook410
I'd say the most faithful (to the sound of the acoustic guitar as a whole and not just to the strings) amplification method would be to use a mic, much like the tailpiece-mounted mic in the photo.
DPA is expensive but reputed to be very good at what it does. But I'm sure there are cheaper miking options out there.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic...109&ddlIndex=8Last edited by kkfan; 06-10-2015 at 02:44 AM.
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I would like to try a DPA set up but I'm concerned it will be a fussy contraption on stage. Would be nice to hear from some who own these.
In my limited experience in amplifying acoustic archtops I'm finding the K&K Definity and True Archtop require a lot of tweaking to sound decent. They are imperfect but adequate. On the other hand, a Sunrise pickup sounds great. A bit pricey since you're better off with the Sunrise preamp in addition to the pickup. Also, it's only a solution for oval hole archtops.
I'm going to try shimming a Schertler AG6 with the plug in mini-mic on my next arrival (another oval hole). I'm hoping some cork or balsa shims will raise the pickup close enough to the strings.
It would be nice if some of the flat top magnetic pickups came in a flatter format to fit archtops but I'm sure the market is too small to support that sort of product.
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because every type of music on TV has to be edited to be below 2 minutes, has to be accompanied by an extremely overpowering computer-generated mind dulling drum beat, and is mostly about the dance routine of and/or the hype around the performer in question, than it is about someone actually making music. Otherwise the beer sipping and potato chip devouring general public will zap away to watch the commercials on another channel. If you want to listen to musicians making MUSIC, it is best to get rid of the TV immedialtely. Today there is an enourmous wealth of beautiful and well made acoustic music, old and new, in any genre imaginable, available through the www. Thanks to Robert Benedetto, there have never been as many builders of archtops as there are today, and there is a plethora of enormously talented jazz guitarists showing off the tonal quality of these instruments. The TV is a medium of the past, all the intelligent people have long moved on, and watch what they like, in stead of what was picked and edited for them. I am not cynical but totally happy with such developments. This morning I listened to Baroque and Bluegrass and tonight I think I am going to re watch one and a half hours of Rosenberg with Bireli without commercial breaks. These are wonderful times. Originally Posted by DanTheMan
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Acoustic archtop not popular? It's all because of this guy and that funny thing screwed onto his guitar. Things were actually going pretty good until he showed up.
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I play acoustic archtop out every chance I get. I even did a play where the pit band is onstage the entire time with one to show it off. Audience liked it...many people came back to inquire.
Here's what kills it: when my son was younger he picked up my blonde Gretsch noncut and played "Every Rose Has Its Thorn" saying "I don't get it."
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I, too, play acoustic archtop just about every day. Granted, I'm almost always alone, so I'm not doing much to promote it among the masses.
As a musician I don't care much about this; I use the voice that pleases me, and fortunately there is no shortage of fine instruments to choose from. In fact there are piles of them. So lack of popularity isn't having much effect on the market at least.
In terms of why they are not more in the mainstream: It's easy to blame the prevalence of popular music that we might consider lame, such as hip-hop, rap, noisy rock, bubble gum pop, etc. - but as Frank (fws6) alludes to, that's not really the cause. There is actually a ton of independent, eclectic music out there, genre crossing, acoustic, ensembles comprised of all sorts of non-traditional combos of instruments. There are people playing archtop guitars in some of these acts, like David Rawlings with Gillian Welch (acoustic duo).
I joked about it by posting CC's photo, but I believe it to be true: The acoustic archtop was dealt an untimely death blow by the magnetic guitar pickup. It was becoming a sensation in the first half of the 1930s, with Lang and Kress and McDonough and the other "plectrum guitarists" with their intricate duet recordings, which really defied genre - they were a bit of jazz, bit of blues, bit of pop.
With the arrival of Charlie and his Gibson pickup (and amp), the acoustic archtop was almost instantly made obsolete, or more accurately, relegated to the far corner of the dance band stage. And then the 1950s came, and rock 'n' roll replaced swing music on the pop charts. That was it. RIP. You can see how then-modern jazz and rock players would not have a use for the old girl, right? Makes sense to me.
In country music, there were some stars: Maybelle Carter played a 1928 L-5 and Roy Clark played a 1948 Super 400. I'm sure there were others, but country is not my bag so I can't cite them. Those players chose the acoustic archtop over a flattop. I think it excels in that role, but when it comes to the needs of touring musicians, it fails. Acoustic archtop amplification remains a headache that has not been solved to this day. By "solved" I mean turnkey, OEM, good sounding, easy peasy. Flattops come from the factory with invisible under-saddle pickups and onboard electronics. Archtops? 'Nuff said.
A solid wood Gibson L-7 costing $2000 USD with an OEM under-saddle pickup, invisibly wired with an onboard preamp, that actually sounds good as opposed to "passable" - might convert a few buyers. I'd certainly be very interested.
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Acoustic archtops can have a unique tone, especially the strong mid-range "thonk" tone bar braced design. I would compare this to the percieved volume of the mandolin in bluegrass - a tiny instrument that really cuts through when playing the "chop".
I am using X-bracing in my own builds of 16" cutaway archtops. These guitars have a balanced tone, nice overtones and sustain. The result is somewhere between a classic tone-bar archtop and a typical flat top guitar. The volume, especially to the player, does not seem to compete with flat tops, so they will likely not dominate an acoustic jam. However, I continue to be surprised at how much the sound projects to the listeners compared to how we hear it as players.
(All of my builds have included pickups, and I have standardized on JJB two-transducer system that compares very well to K&K at 1/3 the cost. I have modified the stereo jack to add a neck mounted floating mini-humbucker on a couple of the builds. Mixed with an external preamp and a wide range of plugged in tones are possible.)
The playing comfort, responsiveness and tone of these acoustic 16" guitars makes it a pleasure to play in the living room.
I guess my point is acoustic archtops can have a mainstream tone, but most people likely have a traditional "thonk" tone expectation that causes them to pass the f-holes by?
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Funny thing, going back to the early 70-80s, almost all my acoustics were archtops. Had nothing to do with traditional jazz styles; only started playing jazz 20 years ago. It's just that, at any particular price point, the archtops always had better necks. My $200 L50 played better than, say, a Takamine, and my $600 L7 played better than a Martin (70s-80s prices here).
I have never played at an acoustic jam where my 17" 1957 Gretsch Fleetwood was not the loudest guitar there.
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I think that Roger is correct in describing how the advent of the electric guitar spelled the death of the archtop acoustic in popular music. Remember that jazz was THE popular music form when the acoustic archtop guitar was king. The magnetic pickup just annihilated it.
Roger is also correct in pointing out that some country stars used the acoustic archtop. In fact, in Nashville through the mid-1960s, the acoustic archtop was ever-present. Everyone from Chet Atkins on down in Nashville kept an _acoustic_ archtop (Atkins had a Gibson L-10 that he was given from his brother Jim, who received it from Les Paul when they both worked with Fred Waring.) on hand for rhythm work. This was preferred in most instances to using a flattop for recording purposes.
One of the most famous instances of this--that many (most) people mistake for a different guitar--is the great Grady Martin on the Marty Robbins hit "El Paso." Martin used his Epiphone acoustic archtop for the signature guitar fill work on that memorable 60s country/pop tune. Many people imagine it to have been a classical guitar.
Ultimately, though, the G to Cadd9 chord change in first position just killed the archtop. Everyone under the age of 50 picks up a guitar and strums the chord: G,C,D,G,D,G; then the chord C,E,G,D,G. This just sounds so airy and jangly on a Martin or a Taylor. By comparison, it sounds kind of dry and no big deal on your garden variety archtop. Most first-position chords sound kind of vanilla on an archtop--archtops come into their own between the third and eleventh frets. (Look at the wear patterns on the backs of the necks of most vintage archtop guitars.) The archtops that _do_ sound amazing when playing cowboy chords are the 14" and 15" body archtops from the 30s by Epiphone, Gibson, and others.
So, if somebody wants to sub an archtop for a flattop--for, say, use in a contemporary folk band--a 30s Epi Blackstone is a good choice. It has some zing. If, on the other hand, somebody is dying to present an unaccompanied version of "Over The Rainbow," you probably can't do any better than a Super-400, or maybe a great L-5...wait! You could use a D'Angelico New Yorker...beautiful. A D-28, though, will whup that New Yorker on "Soldier's Joy." If, however, a newgrass band wanted to do a souped up version of "Soldier's Joy," the New Yorker could do a tremendous rhythm on it that couldn't be matched by the Martin.
Make any sense?
Get two albums: David Grisman's work with Martin Taylor and with Tony Rice. (Tone Poems 2 and Tone Poems) You will be able to hear immediately the gorgeous beauty of the acoustic archtop versus the gorgeous beauty of the flattop guitar, presented by Martin Taylor and Tony Rice, respectively.
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+1 on the Martin Taylor / Grisman album. It's beautiful! You can hear similar gorgeous archtop tones on the album that Martin Taylor did with Steve Howe, "Masterpiece Guitars." And of course, the "Four Seasons" work with Monteleone's archtops led by Anthony Wilson.
I have to say that I actually do enjoy playing folksy G to Cadd9 type progressions on my older 16" Gibsons especially. In fact I take some pride in being able to coax out some of the sweet jangle that one looks for in an acoustic guitar. I got over the stereotype that one should just go "chunk chunk" because that's just not my thing. Plus it keeps the acoustic archtop in a historical box. I think it easily thrives outside that box. Just step outside of it and start playing it YOUR way!
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I didn't want to imply that the K&K archtop pickups, which are quite easy to install, sound bad. They are certainly as good as garden variety factory flat top piezo's. They do call for a good parametric EQ and something appropriate at the amplification end but for most applications they work well enough.
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Jabberwocky,
That is SO true. Nowadays, there are legions of "loud" bands that travel with sham stacks and are actually playing through a rack containing a 19U version of a 5-watt Champ that is being fed into the house. Still other bands are just feeding their digital recording on a USB drive into the house and lipsynching to that. Yech.
It's sort of like doing the DJ button pushing thing, but with band puppets.
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Hi,
I would like to know what guitar gives the best sound non amplified for playing blues and jazz
Money no object !
I suppose the larger guitars sound better and louder :
- vintage L7/L5 ?
- D'Angelico New Yorker (18") ?
- Le Grand ?
- Super 400 ?
- Citation ?
- Reissues ?
- Sadowsky LS17 ?
Thanks for your input
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I assume you realize that there's no succinct answer. It's like asking what the best electric guitar is. Ask 10 players, and you'll get 15 answers.
That said, with money no object and the word "best" in your criteria, rule out anything with a set-in pickup or any laminated materials whatsoever.
You're left with vintage Gibson, Epiphone, D'Angelico, and D'Aquisto...
...or MANY modern instruments from builders like Benedetto, Parker, Collings, Monteleone, Campellone, Triggs, and on and on. Today's archtop offerings from private builders are unprecedented in their diversity and quality (and $$$).
Don't get hung up on size, either. Bigger is usually louder but not always; it's a matter of which frequency range is accented. Some 16" guitars are way more punchy than 18" guitars. The larger ones are typically deeper in the bass response, as you'd expect. And the smaller ones can be more intimate and responsive to a delicate touch.
So it depends on what you want. Look at flattops - the mighty dreadnought is NOT the king for everything. 000 and 00 size guitars rule in some genres.
If money is really no object, get out there and travel so you can play a bunch of stuff.
P.S. My personal best acoustic archtops are a 1928 L-5 and a 1947 Super 400. I don't own any modern purely acoustic ones.Last edited by rpguitar; 09-23-2015 at 05:15 AM.
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Gosh. I guess you'll just have to try them out. This will be a terrible ordeal, but I'm sure you will cope nonetheless ;-) Originally Posted by MacFever
My experience has been that with vintage guitars there is significant variation in quality. I think most people agree. My limited experience also points up the fact that wartime instruments are worse than prewar, which is what you would expect.
Other than that, voicing. There has been AFAIK a change in the voicing of archtops. The older archtop voicing favoured sheer volume and upper midrange 'cut' as amplification wasn't available. I have a friend who plays a vintage prewar L7, and while this guitar doesn't seem loud close up compared to my relatively inexpensive D-hole Selmer-Maccaferri copy, its projection is amazing - the sound goes where it is needed. Get a friend to listen to the guitar from some distance away if projection is a concern, because as a player you will not be best placed to appreciate it.
That said, my friend's vintage Ephiphone is biblically loud, but has a horrendous action to match.
The more modern instruments, I believe, are voiced more from the point of view of balance and articulateness.
PS I tried a new 10,000GBP acoustic Gibson L5 and it was the biggest pile of shit ever. I have no idea what was going on in the luthier's head when they made it. It was functionally useless as an acoustic jazz box. The 5,000GBP D'Angelico NY copy hanging next to it was fantastic. Made by an indie luthier - which given your budget might be a good direction to go in - get one made for you. If you play a few boxes you'll get an idea of what type of sound you like and have some reference points. Make sure you are nice to the luthier though haha - the ones made with love sound better ;-)Last edited by christianm77; 09-23-2015 at 06:46 AM.
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John Monteleone 17" Radio Flyer. $75000. Just because you can...
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If you are looking for volume have you checked out the Resonophonic guitars? Go to www.beardguitars.com and check out some of the demo videos.
Not archtops but definitely can produce the volume since that was what was the drive behind their creation.
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MacFever,
You will get a lot of subjective opinions on this post. The best ones will be from folks who have had them all. There are a few folks around here that have.
So coming from a person who has had only one, I have been consistent in my assertion that my 2006 Gibson L7c is great. It sounds unbelieveable, in fact, I cant imagine ever wanting better - but remember its the only one I've owned. It has a very thin top which has kind of bass drum effect. I love it. However, because I am a pretty much out of control gear head, I'll probably end up getting a D'Angelico one day.
JD
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Yeah,
I was thinking about a D'Angelico New Yorker ...
Eric
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Eric, Originally Posted by MacFever
Seriously, if you're thinking about a D'Angelico New Yorker check out Bryant Trenier and see what he can do for you. Trenier Guitars . $13000 to $15000 for a Trenier 18" New Yorker complete with a metal stairstep tailpiece.
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Another way of asking the question is what players do you really like, and what kind of situations would you be playing the instrument in? Originally Posted by MacFever
For me, I'd terrified to take anything too valuable out of the house, but people do gig these things, and that's wonderful. Nothing sadder than a great guitar locked in a vault.
(Well there's quite a few things sadder, but it still sucks ;-))Last edited by christianm77; 09-23-2015 at 09:20 AM.
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If you want to get something that is recognized and viewed as a top notch, iconic status symbol of the acoustic archtop guitar among players, dealers, collectors, and historians, than it's hard to beat an original D'Angelico New Yorker. It's among the highest pedigreed acoustic archtops on the planet. So is an original 16" Lloyd Loar signed L-5 from 1923-27, just sayin'.
Is a D'A New Yorker the best? Highly subjective and debatable. Won't even go there. (Hint: "Best" doesn't really exist)
So if this purchase is based on musician value first vs. collector value first, the range of choices will be different.
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How about this one?
Not too shabby:
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 09-23-2015 at 09:34 AM.
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Oh Yeah, Forgot about that one.
My god he's a great player. And look at the way he is holding it. He is getting the best sound possible by holding it that way. Patrick would have haunted me if I didn't bring that up..
Joe D.
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