Specialty and Boutique Amps are they really worth it.

[cmajor9]

The actual questions ought to be:

1. Does the boutique component provide a noticeable incremental improvement in quality over the generic or less expensive component?

If the answer to question 1 is yes, then it leads to a second question...

2. As a consumer, is that improvement in quality worth the incremental increase in price? This is something which depends entirely on who is providing the answer. To some, the answer will be yes and to others it will be no. They can in fact both be right based on the difference in their perspectives and values.

I think Jim is really on to the way to think about this. First, does a (more expensive) product provide a real, noticeable improvement over a (less expensive) one? Then, crucially, is that improvement worth it to you? That's a question that each one of us can only answer for ourself, and hopefully one that others here will respect our decision about.

That said, I'm all for people bringing to the attention of the forum other solutions that might be cheaper, but give a good/better tonal result. That's something many of us appreciate about the gear threads here. Here's hoping we can keep a balance of enthusiastic and informative, but still respectful, discussion!

[mambosun]

I've been looking for a new amp rig for my Jazz guitars. I have a Blackstar that I use on my rock gigs and a Fender Princeton (digital one) that I use to practice with. I have been thinking about an AI/RE combo or a Tomkat or Henriksen. I played the Tomkat and Henriksen this weekend and yeah they sounded good but not much better then an off the shelf Fender tube amp. I know this is all subjective and I am not one to throw out conspiracy theories but I am wondering if the high price for "jazz" guitar amps is only due to the scale (size) of the companies that are making these and a perceived notion that electric archtops and other jazz boxes are so unique and specialized that it requires a unique amp for them. There are major manufacturers that make acoustic amps that should work great with true carved archtops. I am not sure the boutique manufactures are coning their own speakers or doing anything totally innovative. $1000+ for solid state amps just seems like a lot.

Again to each his own, and it is up to each individual to determine the value they put on their sound. I am just wondering if this boutique market is more hype then substance.

Regards,

Rick

There's no single answer to your question, but at the end of the day, an amp is an amp, meaning it is supposed to amplify a given signal, there's not any magic about this. I know, marketing people thinks differently.
This being said, everybody experienced unexpected result from dirt cheap stuff saying that this is THE BARGAIN! In fact they just meet the sound they we're looking for, wether it comes from cheap or expensive gear.
Unless you're a believer, there 's no religion about amp sounds..
Only experience matters....

[Pat Clare]

How much is considered too expensive, is there a figure to gauge it?
I also think that the amount of effects and cost of them factors into it as well. But how much do jazz guitarist's spend on their amp and effect setup and how much is too much?

[Bushwackbob]

Let's face it: The "quest" is an addiction. As such, the "too much" only comes into play when it threatens the marriage or ability to continue to have a roof over one's head...

[Jim Soloway]

There's no single answer to your question, but at the end of the day, an amp is an amp, meaning it is supposed to amplify a given signal, there's not any magic about this. I know, marketing people thinks differently.

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.

[Jim Soloway]

How much is considered too expensive, is there a figure to gauge it?
I also think that the amount of effects and cost of them factors into it as well. But how much do jazz guitarist's spend on their amp and effect setup and how much is too much?

I think is really depends on the individual and what they're comfortable with both in terms of cost and how close it gets them to their desire tone.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.

I went through that dichotomy without realizing it at first. I was looking for an amp for an acoustic L-5 with a floating pickup. I'd try a standard jazz amp, then I'd try more of an acoustic amp. At some point I realized I'd have to make a choice one way or they other, because I was waffling between the two worlds.

[mambosun]

.... and depends on the power of the "believe engine" too....

[Merton]

Something I've learned from watching Antiques Roadshow: a person's aesthetic appreciation for something will change soley based on someone else putting a high dollar value on it.

[mambosun]

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.

Yes you're right, unless I didn't say "one size fits all", and refering to your explanation, you could add more schools (british sound vs american, etc...)
I just wanted to stress on the fact rather than specs, meaning that you always ought to try before purchase and avoid pre-conceived ideas based on marketing people promises...

[mambosun]

Is there any ABX testing for instrument amplification as for HiFi?

[Jim Soloway]

Something else to toss into the equation ... I no longer use a conventional amp at all. Instead, I use a modeler (a Line 6 Pod HD desktop unit) into a powered full range cabinet. I'm able to use the modeler to dial in exactly the amp response I want and in theory the cabinet just makes the signal louder. After about 9 months I'm still messing around a bit with the cabinet but I'm thrilled with the signal I get from the modeler. It's much easier to record than a conventional amplifier and the modeler itself is about the size of a large book. Even with the powered cab, it's a very light weight solution. The cost for the whole rig is about $1100 (or less depending on the cabinet). As with amplifiers, there are a lot of choices and different price levels but this setup works very well for me.

[Help!I'maRock!]

Something else to toss into the equation ... I no longer use a conventional amp at all. Instead, I use a modeler (a Line 6 Pod HD desktop unit) into a powered full range cabinet. I'm able to use the modeler to dial in exactly the amp response I want and in theory the cabinet just makes the signal louder. After about 9 months I'm still messing around a bit with the cabinet but I'm thrilled with the signal I get from the modeler. It's much easier to record than a conventional amplifier and the modeler itself is about the size of a large book. Even with the powered cab, it's a very light weight solution. The cost for the whole rig is about $1100 (or less depending on the cabinet). As with amplifiers, there are a lot of choices and different price levels but this setup works very well for me.

what cab are you using, Jim?

[Jim Soloway]

what cab are you using, Jim?

Right now I have a Verve FBT 8ma. At standard pitch, it has more clean volume and headroom than a Princeton Reverb and there's no fan (a must for me). My big complaint is that I also like to play tuned down a full step and it won't handle the low end of that at all. When I started, I had a QSC K8. It sounded great and handled the low end better but I leaned to HATE the fan. I also tried the Tech 21 Power Engine 60. Nice concept but way too much hiss.

[jorgemg1984]

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.

You're right - those two shcools sum it up. Knowing that brands know how to use marketing as a tool to inflate their prices usually towards one of those schools - again some people think they are worth it others don't (hope I am not being rude by saying this).

[Help!I'maRock!]

Right now I have a Verve FBT 8ma. At standard pitch, it has more clean volume and headroom than a Princeton Reverb and there's no fan (a must for me). My big complaint is that I also like to play tuned down a full step and it won't handle the low end of that at all. When I started, I had a QSC K8. It sounded great and handled the low end better but I leaned to HATE the fan. I also tried the Tech 21 Power Engine 60. Nice concept but way too much hiss.

interesting how a whole step changes things. i'd be interested to see what solution you come up with.

[raylinds]

A lot of guitar players think differently too. There are very much two schools of thought on this. The first school think of the guitar as basically an acoustic instrument and they believe that the sole job of an amp is to make the guitar louder without modifying it's basic tone. The second school are those who consider the guitar to be an electric instrument, and that an amp is part of the signal chain, interacting with and modifying the tone of the guitar. That's not marketing, that's real. Neither is right or wrong. They just have a different approach and require different tools as a result.

Very true. I recently was shopping for a new jazz guitar. I was very intrigued with the whole carved archtop beauties with floating pickups, but I soon realized the sound I prefer is an electric one, so I went with a laminated guitar with routed pickups, and couldn't be happier. I also like the the colored tone that tube amps provide.

I used to think that it took a certain amount of distortion to be a real electric guitar sound, but my thinking has turned aorund 180 degrees.

[rickshapiro]

Right now I have a Verve FBT 8ma. At standard pitch, it has more clean volume and headroom than a Princeton Reverb and there's no fan (a must for me). My big complaint is that I also like to play tuned down a full step and it won't handle the low end of that at all. When I started, I had a QSC K8. It sounded great and handled the low end better but I leaned to HATE the fan. I also tried the Tech 21 Power Engine 60. Nice concept but way too much hiss.

I do something similar. I have a rock gig where I play 80 percent keyboard and 20 percent guitar. I am already lugging two keyboard, keyboard stand, mixer, speaker stands and two JBL PR612. Rather then bring a guitar amp I have been running my guitar though a Line 6 POD HP500 through a mixer into the JBLS. I then run my mixer (keys and guitar) in stereo to the house mix.

This rig has been pretty good but last weekend I ended up bringing my Blackstar Club40 to the gig. I had that amp fully cranked, tubes were humming. I had a way better experience with the amp in terms of sound and feel compared to the modeler.

I was surprised that I had to crank the 40 watt up so loud. The other guitar player has a Bogner Shiva, the volume on that we about 5. Big difference between 80 and 40.

Sadly I will go back to the modeler because I am too old and lazy to move one more thing.

Rick

[Jim Soloway]

This rig has been pretty good but last weekend I ended up bringing my Blackstar Club40 to the gig. I had that amp fully cranked, tubes were humming. I had a way better experience with the amp in terms of sound and feel compared to the modeler.

Rick

My experience has been the exact opposite. I've been much happier with the modeler and cab than I've ever been with an amplifier. I feel like the sound is bigger and richer and I'm able to accomplish that at volume levels far below the levels at which an amp starts to open up.

[rickshapiro]

My experience has been the exact opposite. I've been much happier with the modeler and cab than I've ever been with an amplifier. I feel like the sound is bigger and richer and I'm able to accomplish that at volume levels far below the levels at which an amp starts to open up.

Just out of curiosity what style of music and situation are we talking?

[mattymel]

I always expect to pay about 100% more for every 5% improvement I can actually hear.

My preference is for newer (used) guitars and vintage amps. I may be crazy but I have a suspicion that the orange drop caps most boutique guys use these days impart a little sterility that bugs me after a while. At least I don't hear it in any old amps. But whether I am hearing caps, old speakers, old cabs, or all of the above is anybody's guess.

I'm just glad that most vintage amps are still within the "ridiculously expensive" category, and not "in your dreams". Though i fear a tweed bassman is sadly not in my near future.

[Jim Soloway]

Just out of curiosity what style of music and situation are we talking?

Squeaky clean solo guitar with a generally Fender Blackface tone. Here's a video that's pretty typical

[Help!I'maRock!]

great clip, Jim.

[Jim Soloway]

great clip, Jim.

Thanks. The Pod has made recording a whole lot easier. I have an 11 Rack here as well that I picked up in a trade but it took me almost a month to get a copy of working software for it from Avid. I'm planning to start experimenting with it when I get back from NAMM to see if it records any better than the POD. Once I get the answers to all of that it will finally be time to record that solo album I keep taking about.

[mambosun]

Thanks. The Pod has made recording a whole lot easier. I have an 11 Rack here as well that I picked up in a trade but it took me almost a month to get a copy of working software for it from Avid. I'm planning to start experimenting with it when I get back from NAMM to see if it records any better than the POD. Once I get the answers to all of that it will finally be time to record that solo album I keep taking about.

Congrats! Nice playing and really sweet tone.