george benson vintage tone

**gianluca** · 01-04-2012, 08:20 AM

Im' trying to get the tone I heard on some old george benson's youtube video:

- the shadow of your smile
- stella by starlight w/mcCoy tyner trio

both recordings must be in 1972 or so.

the first video is just a GB's picture with a GB10 (maybe not the guitar used on that recording)
in the second video, a real video, he uses a currently discontinued Ibanez Johnny Smith model (maybe 2461 is the right model name).

the guitar tone is very bright but warm; the basses are low level but present and rich.
I love it.

Of course much is due to his touch and his guitar but I'm wondering if I could get that tone from my 80's gibson 175 and a fender twin reverb.

My guitar is strung with nickel flatwound strings 013-052 (pyramid) and the eq setup on the twin reverb is: High 5, Middle 5, Low 3; vibrato ch., input 2.

Please help me to suppress this initial GAS toward vintage Ibanez or Guild

**Double 07** · 01-04-2012, 09:16 AM

OMG!!!! The tone George has on that live "The Shadow of Your Smile" clip from '72, OMG I love that tone. If I could get that tone I would be a happy man. I would like to know what gear he was using to get that gorgeous tone. Wonder if the George Benson Fender amp that's supposed to be coming out will sound like that. For now we can only hope.

**oldane** · 01-04-2012, 10:27 AM

Please help me to suppress this initial GAS toward vintage Ibanez or Guild

We should never miss an oppotunity to fuel our GAS. That's what fora like these are for.

No seriously, I don't think a vintage Guild or Ibanez will make that big a difference from your Gibson 175.

It seems to me that there are also an acoustic flavour to the sound. Could Bensons guitar be miked in addition to being amplified via a magnetic PU? I say miked and not piezo PU, because I don't think piezos PUs were available for guitars back in 1972. It was about that time we saw the first Barcus-Berry contact PUs which were fixed to the guitar top with a wax like substance, but I don't think they worked by the Piezo principle. They were primarily used on flattops and not archtops.

I'd think an archtop with a magnetic and a piezo PU used together - maybe through an EQ (graphic/parametric) - can produce a sound like that with many amps. The Yamaha AEX1500 would fill that bill, but there may be others. Or you could mike the guitar in addition to using the magnetic PU. Or you could play at very low levels so you can hear the acoustic tone blend with the tone from the amp.

Or you could of course also say that it was surely a nice tone Benson had on that clip, but you have another just as nice tone with the gear you already have. A Gibson 175 plus a Twin Reverb should give a jazz tone about as nice as they come. If that's not enough, you may put an EQ in front of the amp to supplement the amps tone stack, and you'll have a very wide range of tones to choose from. But again, IMHO a Twin Reverb tone "out of the box" is gorgeous.

**augusjazz** · 01-04-2012, 10:38 AM

Having a Twin Reverb and a Gibson 175 can not ask for more.
With this gear the tone is one.
At this level of gear, you, me and Benson using the same sound different.

**gianluca** · 01-04-2012, 01:39 PM

yes,
but I found that with some simple adjustments I went pretty close to that tone:

before I had string action as low as possible before buzzing: I raised the action a couple of mm and I found some improvements toward the tone I was looking for;

pickup height: I lovered the pickup almost to its minimum, till the pickup shell height and now my guitar sounds a lot more like benson's tone;

pickup inclination: I lowered the pu a bit more in the low E area than the E and B string area; this allow me to keep defined basses without lower too much the low knob on the amp: the treble are now a little warmer even with the treble knob in flat position;

the strings: to me, nickel flatwounds are more benson's tone than steel or chromes. TI and pyramid are nickel strings (benson uses TI). I prefer pyramid because of their more balanced gauge sets

the pick: I found that a thinner pick helps me to achieve that tone; I went from a 2mm pick to a 1,14mm one

Now I am pretty close, but still far from what I want

and the GAS is growing...

**mattymel** · 01-04-2012, 02:30 PM

A big part of the GB sound is a solid top and floating pickup. But 95% is the way he picks and his rhythmic genius.

**helios** · 01-04-2012, 02:57 PM

Here are the George Benson YouTube Videos:

**Bebop Tom** · 01-04-2012, 03:12 PM

Benson's guitar would not have been miked live. Your 175 with medium flatwound strings and a Fender Twin is fine. I believe a slightly higher action to create space in between the notes helps, but I do not know if Benson does that. He says his light left hand touch is what creates his staccato sound. Benson uses medium picks similar to Fender mediums. I feel that is a big factor in his sound, and when I switched from heavy/extra heavy picks it helped me a lot regarding getting a Benson-like tone. It adds snap and brightness. He keeps his tone control on his guitar up, and I believe he turns the mid tone knob up on his Twin. I remember an interview where he said he got that from Grant Green. A friend of mine heard that Benson did that in a club he sat in at. Someone my friend knew was there and checked out the settings after Benson played. Apparently Benson cranked the mid on the Twin that was at the club, and turned down the bass and treble. I saw Benson perform recently and he had two Fender Twin Reverb reissues as amps. I guess the rest is up to you :-)

**NSJ** · 01-04-2012, 03:16 PM

Hmm, that picture doesn't seem to fit the time period. '72???

How could that have been a GB-10? I thought he didn't start playing those until the late 70s??
I just got a cheap '78 GB10, and I researched it and found out it was the first year of production for these models.

**Patrick2** · 01-04-2012, 03:17 PM

Stella by Starlite . . . . WOW! That's George at his best. GREAT lines. Not sure about the guitar? Looks to be a law suit Ibanez Johnny Smith? I can't believe how much control over feed back he has, given the volume level and that the guitar is X braced with a floater. The tape over the F holes seems to be miraculous . . . unless he's doing something else too. But, his tone doesn't seem to be suffering too much.

The tone on Shadow of Your Smile was certainly good. But, I didn't care for his delivery of the song. (never thought I'd hear myself saying that about George Benson!) Just way too many gratuitous chromatic runs for my taste. I guess it was just his mood at the time? He's still one of my top 3 favorites of all time. But, if you really wanna hear a great interpretation of that song, search you tube for the Joe Pass version . . . with just him, his Ibanez and a Music Man amp. He's my absolute favorite of all time. (Tal & Wes round out the the rest of the top 3 for me) Yeah . . yeah . . .yeah, I know. . . that's four not three. But, if you were asked to name your top 3 favorite jazz guitar players ever . . . which one of those 4 would YOU eliminate?? So, therefore, those 4 players are my top 3 jazz guitar players . . . EVER!!!!

**Double 07** · 01-04-2012, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Stella by Starlite . . . . WOW! That's george at his best. GREAT lines. Not sure about the guitar? Looks to be a law suit Ibanez Johnny Smith? I can't believe how much control over feed back he has, given the volume level and that the guitar is X braced with a floater. The tape over the F holes seems to be miraculous . . . unless he's doing something else too. But, his tone doesn't seem to be suffering too much.

The tone on Shadow of Your Smile was certainly good. But, I didn't care for his delivery of the song. (never thought I'd hear myself saying that about George Benson!) Just way too many gratuitous chromatic runs for my taste. I guess it was just his mood at the time? He's still one of my top 3 favorites of all time. But, if you really wanna hear a great interpretation of that song, search you tube for the Joe Pass version . . . with just him, his Ibanez and a Music Man amp. He's my absolute favorite of all time. (Tal & Wes round out the the rest of the top 3 for me) Yeah . . yeah . . .yeah, I know. . . that's four not three. But, if you were asked to name your top 3 favorite jazz guitar players ever . . . which one of those 4 would YOU eliminate?? So, therefore, those 4 players are my top 3 jazz guitar players . . . EVER!!!!

As much I admire Joe Pass for his technique and what he contributed to the language of jazz guitar. I always feel like you can "get away with" a lot more playing solo guitar and improvising lines over "thin air" than you can with a band behind you. Not trying to take anything away from him. Playing solo guitar on that level is a fine art all in itself. Just when I hear guys doing it with a band, hearing the interaction between the instruments; nirvana lol.

**Patrick2** · 01-04-2012, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

As much I admire Joe Pass for his technique and what he contributed to the language of jazz guitar. I always feel like you can "get away with" a lot more playing solo guitar and improvising lines over "thin air" than you can with a band behind you.

You're absolutely correct about solo guitar. But, with Joe Pass, it wasn't some much about "getting away with it" as it was "taking liberties" within the context of a tune or a structure . . . albeit, without the restrictions of having other players behind you, as you mentioned. However . . . and this is a BIG however . . . you can't "get away with" anything when you're playing over Oscar Peterson's comp'ing. I think that Oscar's chord voicings and comp rhythms accounted for just a little more substance than "thin air" . . . . . don't you?

**monkmiles** · 01-04-2012, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

As much I admire Joe Pass for his technique and what he contributed to the language of jazz guitar. I always feel like you can "get away with" a lot more playing solo guitar and improvising lines over "thin air" than you can with a band behind you. Not trying to take anything away from him. Playing solo guitar on that level is a fine art all in itself. Just when I hear guys doing it with a band, hearing the interaction between the instruments; nirvana lol.

A lot of poeple seem to think just about the solo guitar stuff Pass did. I happen to prefer Joe Pass's playing when in a band context more than his solo guitar.

**Double 07** · 01-04-2012, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

You're absolutely correct about solo guitar. But, with Joe Pass, it wasn't some much about "getting away with it" as it was "taking liberties" within the context of a tune or a structure . . . albeit, without the restrictions of having other players behind you, as you mentioned. However . . . and this is a BIG however . . . you can't "get away with" anything when you're playing over Oscar Peterson's comp'ing. I think that Oscar's chord voicings and comp rhythms accounted for just a little more substance than "thin air" . . . . . don't you?

We can all have our own preferences in what music we prefer to listen to. Believe me I really appreciate what Joe was able to accomplish on the guitar. I've heard his material with a band also. You should read my other posts regarding Joe Pass before jumping to conclusions. Just stating the fact that you can do things on solo guitar that might not "mesh" when playing with a group.

**Patrick2** · 01-04-2012, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

We can all have our own preferences in what music we prefer to listen to. Believe me I really appreciate what Joe was able to accomplish on the guitar. I've heard his material with a band also. You should read my other posts regarding Joe Pass before jumping to conclusions. Just stating the fact that you can do things on solo guitar that might not "mesh" when playing with a group.

Wait a minute man . . . I'm not jumping to any conclusions at all about your post. And, I don't need to read your prior posts. You need to read the post I responded to, in which you seemed to infer that Joe was more about solo guitar than anything else. "as much as I admire Joe Pass . . . . . . . you can get away with a lot more playing solo". Just how would you like me to interpret that? Also, read the last sentence of your most recent post, copied above . . . ""you can do things on solo guitar that might not mesh when playing with a group". Why do you think that Pass did these things on solo guitar and not within a group? Exactly for the reason you stated. Then you say . . . "Playing solo guitar on that level is a fine art all in itself. Just when I hear guys doing it within a band, hearing the interaction between the instruments, nirvana". You can't do the things he does playing solo guitar within the contex of a band/combo setting.

You're a player man. I don't need to explain to you the unrestricted liberties you can take when you play solo. Hell . . . just listen to Tommy Emmanuel. Song changes, key changes within the same song, tempo and meter changes. How is anyone going to do that with 3 or 4 other players trying to follow them?

**mattymel** · 01-04-2012, 08:29 PM

Actually GB uses Dunlop Jazz picks. Relatively thick, with a sharp point. Not Fender mediums. Very hard to get a good jazz tone from those in my experience. Then again, I don't sound like GB when I'm using his stuff either.

I had one of those early Ibanez JS guitars and it was nice. Very similar to the GB10 but a little more traditional archtop sound.

Interesting to me that GB seems to favor floating PU on all his guitars. I'm used to be not into them. Now I have come around.

**Double 07** · 01-04-2012, 09:10 PM

George Benson is one of the greatest jazz guitarist ever!

**augusjazz** · 01-04-2012, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

George Benson is one of the greatest jazz guitarist ever!

Absolutely!!

A good pick for jazz tone is this: (3mm)

**Patrick2** · 01-04-2012, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Double 07

George Benson is one of the greatest jazz guitarist ever!

Can't argue with that at all. Possibly, and this is subjective, THE best jazz guitar player ever. Certainly the most well rounded jazz player of all time. He can do it all man. One of his most redeeming qualities . .. .humility. While I still hold Joe Pass as my personal favorite. . . . George Benson just might be the best ever. As I said before, he is definitly included as one of the 4 jazz guitarists in my list of my top 3 favorite jazz guitar players.

**gianluca** · 01-05-2012, 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by mattymel

I had one of those early Ibanez JS guitars and it was nice. Very similar to the GB10 but a little more traditional archtop sound.

...and did you get closer to his tone with that guitar?

**RuffRider** · 01-05-2012, 04:01 AM

[quote=mattymel;192520]Actually GB uses Dunlop Jazz picks. Relatively thick, with a sharp point. Not Fender mediums. Very hard to get a good jazz tone from those in my experience. Then again, I don't sound like GB when I'm using his stuff either.

{I call to your attention this interview.} - (see link below)
George specifically states on page "3" of the interview that he uses a medium pick. He also stated that he played with a medium pick in a interview he did in 'Guitar Player" back around 2003. If he used that Dunlop Jazz pick he wouldn't be able to smoothly play the fast chord rhythms that he does. I agree with you that it's difficult to get a good Jazz tone with the medium picks but that just what George does - by using a light touch he's able to soften the tone a little.
George Benson: Still the Coolest of Cats - Premier Guitar

**Bebop Tom** · 01-05-2012, 05:58 AM

Not only have I read in several Benson interviews that he uses medium picks, but also read a Mark Whitfield interview where he states that Benson uses medium picks. Here is the quote from George in the Premier Guitar interview that someone posted a while back:
"I use medium picks. They’re not too stiff and they allow me to have better rhythm. And the two edges [on mine] come down to a point that’s straighter than on a Fender pick. I do that because it gives me much more snap when the pick comes off the string."

**mambosun** · 01-05-2012, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by augusjazz

Absolutely!!

A good pick for jazz tone is this: (3mm)

I've been using those for age and still do, playing rock/pop/blues stuff with my band, they are cheap and easy to find; but I found them to be a bit too clunky and bright sounding with my jazzbox. I'd rather use the dunlop jazztone 207 or 208