Fight Archtop Feedback With Cotton Or Plugs

[cjm]

To me is a good analogy and it is actually something that happens in other areas - new things being ignored because old ones were better. In the 1800s people said printed books were the work of the devil and were going to ruin young people - now parents pray for their sons to read a book.

In jazz happened all the time and still happens. This doesn't mean everything is perfect these days. I think you have a lot to learn from the masters of the past (in my case mainly Jim Hall and Wes Montgomery) but you also have to be aware of what is happening these days.

In my case I think people are playing too may pop music or odd metters because of guys like Mehldau that do it in a brilliant way. Drummers and double bass players these days tend to play better even eights beats than swing beats and I think that's a bad thing. People stopped learning standards or wantd to play them in 5 / 4 despite the fact they can't swing properly on 4 / 4. I go to a lot of concerts and after two hours no one played somethiing blues related or a walking bass line.

But there are some amazing stuff going on these days - one of them is precisely dynamics. Rhythm section used to be all about the tempo and now they interact a lot with the soloist - one of the reasons for people playing louder. Amongst may others - new harmonic ideas, great compostions, etc.. everything that makes music goes forward. The fact that these day's players play loud and use a lot of effects doesn't mean they haven't worked on technique, tempos, rhythms, harmonies etc... Some of them were really revolutionary on that.

On the OP, even in archtop trought amp situation in some unmiced concerts it's tought to compete with three horns without getting to a volume level that will give you feedback. It has happened to me sometimes. And you can't tell the horns to play everything pianissimo...

I think perhaps we're just talking past each other now, so I'll simply agree to disagree...

[jorgemg1984]

Yep, it's for the best

Patrick, micing isn't always an option unfortunatelly. It should be... And I think Benson used a X-500, not a semi-hollow but I might be wrong.

[curbucci]

I have seen someone take a cheap pair of flip flops that are made of rubber or rubber like material and cut out the sole in the shape of the the f-hole and cover the f-hole. Seemed it worked quite well on the solid top Eastman he was using.

[docbop]

For every jazz group that plays too softly for the venues they appear in, there is another 100 that are consistently TOO LOUD.

If people want to hear you, they'll listen. If they don't want to hear you, and you're just background noise, they'll adjust their location within a club and their conversational (drunken shrieking) volume to be heard over you no matter how loud you get.

I have observed this frequently...we'll deliberately cut the dynamics back, and start playing more quietly...and within a few minutes, people begin paying attention again.

If that doesn't work to gain their attention, then there is no need to play loud anyway. They aren't listening.

If there are horn players and drummers who won't cooperate, take them into the alley behind the club and deal out a good thrashing. A fat lip will cause any horn player to tone it down and a drummer with several broken fingers will agree to use brushes.

Play quiet...play plywood. Then you don't have to worry about plugs or stuffing the sound box full of wet garbage.

I that's and old trick I learned at one of the first big companies I worked for the CEO would do. He was an older man and I'd went to his staff meeting a couple times. First time I go in and sit down and conference room noisy with people talking. The CEO comes in and sits and room quiets some, but still hard to hear as CEO starts talking. The CEO doesn't speak louder in fact he seems to start speaking quieter, then the whole room goes quiet so people can hear CEO talk. I ask my manager later if the CEO can't talk louder my manager said that's his way of getting everyone's attention and making sure they listen to what he's saying.

[rob taft]

Having worked for some rather capricious CEO's in the 70's and 80's, a sure way to find your way out the exit door was to keep speaking when then the CEO was talking.

[pingu]

I've often wondered about this. Does that affect the acoustic properties of the guitar? Does that defeat the purpose of having a hollow-body guitar?

I'm a half stuffed with foam guy
Yes it decreases the acoustic loudness a bit 30% less maybe
It also takes away some high end brightness in the sound (which I like anyway)

So no ...
it does not defeat the purpose of an archtop
at all , you still get the hollow body big sound
You get the thunkk too

Its cool ....

[jzucker]

there are two distinct ways to go on this.

1) Cotton
When I studied with Martino, he told me the secret he used on his early albums like Strings, EL Hombre, East, etc.

He used upholstery cotton and LOTS of it. For this technique, it's not enough to just put a towel or a couple bags of cotton balls. You have to put enough to put pressure on and dampen the vibration of the top. Everytime I bring this up folks poo-poo this saying that it ruins the sound of your archtop. Yet, the proof is in the pudding. Listen to those albums. To me, they are the among the absolute best jazz guitar tones in history. You will need a couple lbs worth of it minimum. It should be so tight that when you push down through the F hole, there is very little give. It should be solid. This method was shown to me and advised by martino who told me I didn't have enough cotton packing when he could manually compress the cotton through the F Holes! Black velvet underneath the F Holes makes it look better on stage.

2) Packing tape
This is what guys like George Benson, Paul Bollenback, Rodney Jones, Henry Johnson and others do. They put clear packing tape over the F Holes. This technique doesn't dampen the top vibration so if you're playing with an acoustically loud band with loud drummer and/or saxophonist, you can still get the acoustic vibration to induce feedback but it is very effective at reducing the guitar's tendency towards feedback on it's own and yields more acoustic tone than the cotton method. Some folks have complained about it doing damage to the top but if you have a modern gibson with polymer'd lacquer or an ibanez with urethane finish you'll be fine. I've used it on my '63 Gibson Kessel and have taken it off after the gig and not had any residual film or damage to the finish.

I remember talking to Bollenback about plugs and he said they never worked for him. They didn't dampen enough of the feedback for the gigs he was doing...

[jads57]

If you are having feedback issues and it's low end, try using a smaller speaker with your amp. I use a Quilter Aviator 1 x 8" closed back combo and it's solved a lot of that issue.
Other than that use a plywood or solid body instrument for gigs where the band is too loud.

[docbop]

A buddy's father was having feedback issues with his Gibson Johnny Smith. He packed it with cotton batting took a long time to fill it. Said the guitar became very heavy, but did cut the feedback and made the guitar darker sounding.

[DRS]

Replay to a post 6 years ago
Painter's tape works great. I've used it on a big boomy Aria FA71. Looks odd as it is either green or blue. Guess you could tape out a few rows on a cutting board, cut it into an oversize F-hole shape, black it out with a sharpie, and then transfer to your guitar. Gaffer's tape has way too much "grab" and it could pull the finish off some guitars.