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Folks,
I have done a lot of research on the web, including listening to Youtube clips. The results have been inconclusive. I still have not figured out whether it would be worth it to replace the pickups in my Epiphone Sheraton II.
I am counting on your experience. Will I hear a truly noticeable difference? Note that I don't want to change out the potentiometers and switches, and associated wiring.
Should I just save the $400.00 and go for a higher-end semi-hollow?
Thanks in advance.
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12-12-2011 12:43 AM
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I'm the wrong guy to comment probably, but I'll offer this:
The luthiery on the Epi Sheriton is probably great, but you'll never get your money back for upgrades in today's used market.
Depending on where it was made and what era it is, the stock pickups might be pretty good.
Finally, I'm not a huge fan of '57 Classics.
If I had a specific sound in mind and knew the guitar's structure, bridge , etc., would not skew the sound of KNOWN pickups I wanted to use, and was intending to keep the guitar, why not (keeping the stock units for if I sell later)?
When it comes to sandwich/laminated guitars with center blocks, I'm not convinced an upscale version would necessarily SOUND any better than the Sheraton, and isn't the neck usually pretty nice on Sheratons?
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I replaced the stock PUP on my Hamer Jazz 5 with classic 57 in the neck position (I only use that pup) it did make a difference, for the better.
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I replaced the stock pickups on an Epi Sheraton II with a pair of pre-owned Gibson Classic '57's a couple of years ago, and noticed a real difference in output and sound quality. I was able to purchase a pair of the '57's on e-bay for about $100 and paid a luthier about $75 to do the switch. I believe I recovered about half of that amount when I sold the ESII. (I sold the guitar because it ultimately felt too large for me across the lower bout -- it sounded fantastic.) Keep checking ebay for used Classic '57s, you might get a deal that will keep the price/value relationship in check for you. I thought the upgrade was a real improvement on what is already a nice guitar. Best of luck.
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My advise is keep the original pickups in case you decide to sell the guitar some day, and get a set or two of some good pickups. You can always reuse the pickups in your next guitar. Its all fun
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I rewired my '95 Samick Sheraton II with Seymour Duncan Anniversary pickups (JB at the bridge, Jazz at the neck) and here are my thoughts:
Much of the sound is acoustic. If you don't like the sound now, changing the pickups won't help. I found this out the hard way. On the other hand, if you like the sound, but just need "more," new pickups will get it.
Rewiring the Sheraton is a real pain. Everything comes out of and goes in through the treble f-hole. On mine, the binding reduced the narrowest dimension to .75", requiring the use of mini-pots. Dressing the wires so they don't show through the f-holes is tedious, and you might as well rewire the whole catastrophe, because it's easier than doing it piecemeal. The original pots and switch are low quality and the ones on mine were unacceptably noisy, so your idea of "just replacing the pickups" is probably unrealistic.
As noted above, you'll not recover the expense. You'll still have a relatively low-end (but very attractive) guitar: if it pleases you, it's worth it. If it doesn't, it's not.
I put up $200 cash as part of a horse trading deal for my Sheraton and put another $200 into it. Not too much later, I traded it off after I bought a 335.
Bottom line? The Sheraton was a waste of time and money; the Gibson was a bargain at $1750. It sounded, looked and felt great out of the case.
The Epiphone never lived up to its good looks (and good feel, as far as that goes).
The Epiphone, with removed pickguard, creme pickup rings, Seymour Duncans, and speed knobs:
The Gibson, dead stock:
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Wow. Thanks for the great information.
I think I am going to just save up and go for a higher end model late next year. Patience, patience...
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Yes, Backliner. For me, the Sheraton II has a great neck. I actually went into a music store and picked up the Gibson ES-335 and when I played it, the dimensions felt very similar to the Sheraton II. Of course, the Gibson felt "tighter" and the resonance of it made it feel so "alive" when compared with the Sheraton II, which when you pick the string gives you more of a feeling of not being connected to the guitar. (The same is true for the Epiphone Flying V versus the Gibson Flying V, both of which I own - that feeling of resonance as that wood vibrates against my stomach and lap)
Originally Posted by backliner
Because of the similarity in size, I think a Gibson ES-335 or similar model would be my best choice in a high-end semi-hollow. I have had the Sheraton II for five years so I have gotten used to its ergonomics.
One last thing, to my fingers, the neck on the Sheraton II also similar to the neck on a Gibson ES-175, about the same width and contour and smoothness. Just my opinion.
Happy Holidays to you!
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You can always get the pickups used, and sell them separately if you don't like the results without losing much money.
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For a second, I was a little fearful to read the post of someone who calls themselves "Uncle Meat" Originally Posted by Uncle Meat
, but you have given me a great alternative. I checked Ebay and found that I can easily save as much as 30 percent.
Those pickups will be good to try in other guitars that I may come across or presently own. It just might be a good thing to have available if I don't like them in the Sheraton II.
It's just that I have read here, and in many other places, that changing them out in the Sheraton is very labor-intensive. So when it comes to the Sheraton, I think I am going to leave it alone.
There just does not seem to be a shortcut to getting that high-end semi-hollow tone.
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Nice guitars ipdeluxe. I would be proud to gig either of them. Thanks for your input.
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Haha yeah. I was on a Zappa kick when I made the profile. Rewiring semi-hollows can be annoying, especially fishing the tone pots back up through. I've had good luck using rubber bands and soldering wires for this. If the wires going from the volume to the tone pots are long enough to let you take the volumes out by themselves, then it isn't bad at all. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
For a second, I was a little fearful to read the post of someone who calls themselves "Uncle Meat", but you have given me a great alternative. I checked Ebay and found that I can easily save as much as 30 percent.
Those pickups will be good to try in other guitars that I may come across or presently own. It just might be a good thing to have available if I don't like them in the Sheraton II.
It's just that I have read here, and in many other places, that changing them out in the Sheraton is very labor-intensive. So when it comes to the Sheraton, I think I am going to leave it alone.
There just does not seem to be a shortcut to getting that high-end semi-hollow tone.
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The sheraton is a reasonable guitar, but like most people above, i think you can do better in a semi. I've had a sheraton, as well as several gibson 335s, and a few 335 clones. I would suggest looking at 335 clones with mahogany necks ( unlike the sheraton's maple neck) which can go for about half the price of a gibson; the japanese tokai 335s, and 80s greco 335 replicas, sound just like the real thing, and don't need pickup replacements.
I found the sheraton a bit dead by comparison - changing pickups did alter the tonality somewhat, but couldn't ( obviously) eliminate that lack of responsiveness.
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You're welcome. I didn't mention why I did the modifications on the Epiphone: amplified sound aside, it was an excellent feeling and playing instrument. If you have one that suits you, go for it. I just happened to luck into the 335 not too long after I had sold my '63 Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gent for over $3K, so I had cash in my jeans. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
You spend so much time with a guitar that you really need THE ONE, not just an instrument that's OK -- my virtual $.02 worth.
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I finally upgraded my 2004 natural Sheraton II with quality electronics (BCS vintage E335 harness) and a set of Gibson classic 57/57+.
Also did some cosmetic alterations to make it more personal.
Since I already had bound with the guitar (neck wise), I really was curious about what I could achieve with that experiment.
To be honest I am quite happy; not a 335 but its damn good enough to my ears; it is more focussed and warm.
Finally the operation itself was a piece of cake thank to the F Holes being wide enough for the full sizde Bourn pots.
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Vinlander, I may have to bill you.
I had just put given up on my plans and earmarked the money for this project to other uses. Now you share your success story and reignite my desire to upgrade my own Sheraton II.
What is a man to do?
If I may ask, how much was the total cost of your endeavor?
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I was postponing that project since July and decided yesterday was the day.
In my case it was easier than I expected as so many people complain about how difficult it is.
There was no room enough through the pickup hole and everything needed to pass through the F Holes.
My soldering skills were very rusty and I had more problem with it than fishing the kit inside.
The secret is to use little pieces of rope and a piece of soldering wire as a hook and just do it slowly.
My Sherry is a 2004 so it has the bigger F-Holes and thus no problem for the full sized Bourn pots; some earlier versions like the ones from Samick have smaller ones requiring mini pots.
I got the pickups brand new from a Canadian store for 245 can$ the pair.
Long & McQuade - Gibson '57 Classic Plus Humbucker - Gold
The wiring kit I got from BCS VESK-1 | BCS Custom Guitars
They use quality components at an honest price and you can't go wrong since everything is already pre assembled.
The pickguard, knobs and pickup rings were from various Ebay sellers and were overall about 50$ but thats just cosmetics.
So an investment of about 310$ for ALL electronics.
I won't claim it is sounding like a genuine 335, peoples looking for one will never be satisfied until they spend the money for it.
My advise would be if you already bound with your Sherry, it has a nice lutherie and think it as a way to get the better out if it, then do it.
The reason I invest money ans time in all my cheap Epis is because I like them in the first place and just want to get the best out of them.
They are all keepers.
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts, motivation, and your experience with modifying the Epi. Like you, I am not concerned about retaining the value of my guitar, I just want it to sound as good as it can. Then, if I ever have the money and justification, I will eventually get that ES-335. Originally Posted by vinlander
I am lucky that for now, it appears I don't have to worry about the guitar's future value, and plan on just keeping it until it falls apart. It appears that many are not that fortunate, so I don't take it for granted.
I am probably going to go ahead and follow your example and upgrade. I believe I can get it all done for around $400.00.
My thinking is that I would rather spend $400.00 than $3,000.00. I just want to eliminate some of that tinny sound that I hear on the first couple of strings, and get more warmth.
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Creame PU rings and pickguard sure look good on a blonde . Nice job Vanlinder .
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Perhaps a mistake here was installing the Duncan so-called Jazz pickup. This has to be the most mis-named pickup in history. It's noted for being thin and trebly sounding - definitely not what you want if you're after a warm, woody sound. The Duncan '59 (PAF 'clone') or perhaps the Seth Lover would have been right in the '57 Classic territory. Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Another excellent alternative to the Gibson '57 Classic is the Dimarzio 36th Anniversary PAF (DP-103?). In fact, Sadowsky is using this very pickup on one or more of his archtop models. Less expensive than a Gibson pickup and every bit as good. I have two '57 Classic pickups here and I paid well less than $80 for each of them on eBay; so price doesn't haven't to mean excluding Gibson pickups.
As others have suggested, just buy one used pickup and put it in the neck. See if you like it and go from there. I think a Sheraton has plenty of potential.
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In a nutshell, it's not worth the trouble. It takes a huge amount of unremunerated time to install a pickup in that beast. If it weren't such a pain, your advice might make sense. I don't buy guitars in order to spend endless hours tinkering with them. They either produce music or they don't. Despite my best efforts, the Sheraton II didn't. Now that I have the 335, I have learned my lesson. Sow's ears don't become silk purses, until -- perhaps -- you have invested enough time and money to make them no bargain. Originally Posted by va3ux
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Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
Sow's ears don't become silk purses, until -- perhaps -- you have invested enough time and money to make them no bargain.
Ha! Ha! I have always liked "Sow's ear" references.
Call me a fool (my wife does all the time), but I am fairly satisfied with the sound of the Sheraton II for the level I am at. So even if I get just a little increase in tone, I will be happy as along as the cost isn't too crazy. Buying the pickups off ebay one at a time, and that wiring kit later will reduce the pain of buying them all at once. I also worked with wiring in tight places for many years at my job, so I am used to difficult wiring installations. They definitely can teach you to curse!
At the risk of sounding materialistic and maybe even a little prejudice against some of the other brands, I will always CRAVE that ES-335 since it's dimensions are so similar to the Epi, which will make the switch so easy, and it played and sounded so well when I tried one.
But back to the Sheraton, as a bonus, I fully expect the upgrade to help when I switch up and play an Eric Clapton or Albert King blues song!
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Thank you, I am happy with the result Originally Posted by bigdaddyguitar
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Thank you and to be honest yours inspired mine Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
That's a very pretty Sheraton. I'd still have mine if it had had the wider f-holes.
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Thanks again for all the guidance. Originally Posted by vinlander
I got my wiring kit and '57 Classic / Classic Plus pickups installed just today. The technician said it was a 2-hour job and that he had to ream out the mount holes so some of the controls would fit. The cost was 129.00 US dollars. I am hoping the ream out won't compromise the guitars tone in some way.
I originally ordered the kit without specifying the Bourns mini-pots, and then had to go back and modify the order. I am not sure whether or not I still got sent the larger ones accidentally or if the mount holes on my Sheraton II were just really small. I bought the guitar new in 2007.
When I get time, I will try it out through my Fender SuperChamp XD and my slightly modified Deluxe Reverb. I will report back for posterity sake.
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