Epiphone Sheraton II pickup upgrade - Gibson 57 Classics

[Playerizor]

You should consider a Heritage 535. Better than a Gibson 335, got mine for $1300 used but dead nuts perfect.

I also did the exact mod on a Sheraton you want to do. It is a substantial improvement, you'll never recoup your investment, and there always but that little voice in your head that it's not good enough.

[LtKojak]

it was a 2-hour job and that he had to ream out the mount holes so some of the controls would fit. The cost was 129.00 US dollars. I am hoping the ream out won't compromise the guitars tone in some way.

How you figure reaming four holes could affect anything in any way???

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[AlsoRan]

How you figure reaming four holes could affect anything in any way???

Inquiring minds would like to know.

So my fears are unfounded? Good!

In my ignorance, I was concerned about the loss of wood or maybe even things like micro fractures getting introduced into the wooden structure of the guitar that could affect the instruments overall resonance.

I better quit comparing woodworking to working with more brittle structures such as metals.

Lt. K, I will let you know if all this money makes a difference to the sound of the guitar.

[jdaguitar2]

Love those 57' classics!

[Jimmy Mack]

Reading all of these responses got me going.

After playing hundreds of guitars and owning maybe 50, you get to know a good one from a bad one. I've owned both, and some mighty expensive, in each category, some cheap!

When I found both Epiphone a Sheraton and a Lucille marked down for clearance, I had to play them in Manny's, since I was looking for a replacement for my Les Paul, and my '64 Riviera.

Both the Lucille and Sheraton were newer versions, made in China, and excellent guitars. I couldn't decide between the two.

I like the Varitone , so I bought the Lucille. Stock pickups were VERY nice. They didn't have enough push for my blues gigs, so I changed them for 57 Classics + which I had lying around. Couldn't navigate all the wiring with the Stereo and Varitone setups so..........

I changed them from the top. I just cut the wires and spliced in the new ones. No muss - no fuss! I don't understand what all the agony is for ? The stock pots are great as is the rest of the guitar, except for the jack.

This is one FINE instrument, one of the best guitars I have ever owned, better than some of the Gibsons I owned and sold off.

The Sheraton I didn't buy was just as great. I know that it depends on what era the Sheratons were made in. I couldn't stand many of the earlier Asian models.

[LtKojak]

In my ignorance, I was concerned about the loss of wood or maybe even things like micro fractures getting introduced into the wooden structure of the guitar that could affect the instruments overall resonance.

For whatever it may or may not happen, that's what GLUE is used for. You worry way too much!

Lt. K, I will let you know if all this money makes a difference to the sound of the guitar.

I moonlight repairing and modding guitars and p'ups, doing almost exclusively semi- and full-hollows.

IME, a good '50s modded harness, coupled with a good pair of p'ups like the Electric City Pickups RD-59 Hybrid set (I have this set in my #1 guitar, a 1980s, all-maple MIJ, Emperador branded 335 copy) or a Duncan Seth Lover set or Antiquity set (I have an UOA5 modded Ant set in my #2 guitar, a 1981 Korean made maple body, mahogany neck, Tamaki branded 335 copy) will turn a "cheap" instrument into a great-sounding one. All my customers think the final product was worth every penny, even when the modding costed'em even more than the instrument itself.

HTH,

[GNAPPI]

"I have done a lot of research on the web, including listening to Youtube clips. The results have been inconclusive. I still have not figured out whether it would be worth it to replace the pickups in my Epiphone Sheraton II.

I am counting on your experience. Will I hear a truly noticeable difference? Note that I don't want to change out the potentiometers and switches, and associated wiring.

Should I just save the $400.00 and go for a higher-end semi-hollow?"



Good advice has already been given above, however here's some slants you may not have considered

Buying an Epi at the right price then upgrading it as needed say one pup at a time is a great way to solve your "noticeable difference" issue AND give you the opportunity to get into a better sounding guitar at a far lesser cost than a comparable Gibson.

Here's what you (IMO) really need to decide WITHOUT the holy web for guidance. PLAY the freakin pups live, not listen on U-TOOB, or recordings or by taking someone else's opinion... play them yourself in an amp similar to one you already have. Doing anything else will likely let you down.

Here's one of my upgrade stories.

I have a very nice $140 Korean Harmony 335, looked great, played great, sounded less than wonderful.

So what to do? I KNOW I like Schallers (have them on my 575) and I KNOW I like an old pair of DiMarzio 12 poles taken from another 335 guitar that was "put back to factory specs" and I put a Schaller and one of the a Dimarzio pups in the Harmony and I had absolutely no doubt that the guitar would sound how I expected it to, and it does. I play that little bugger all the time now leaving some pretty darn expensive Gibson brand 335 type (Howard Roberts Fusion, ES-345, and a Heritage Prospect) guitars in the case. Sure I still play the Gibby's but the Harmony is out in a stand where it is accessible all the time.

SO, Play them, don't ask, do... go play them :-)

BTW, IMO the Sheraton and Casino are (depending on where they were made) excellent buys worthy of the minimal expense of a pup upgrade and there's nothing wrong with the switches, pots or jacks. See about used pups, let someone elses "upgrade" mistakes benefit you and you're done.

Oh, the delta between a Sheraton WITH upgrades and a 335 is generally more than $1000.

[Likeke]

I built my own archtop patterned after an ES-175 with 57 Classic in the fingerboard position and a 57 Classic + in the bridge position. A professional musician owns a 1962 ES-175 with PAF's. According to him my guitar sounds better than his. I just find the sound to be really "balsy" with rich whole sound (difficult to describe). Bottom line, I really like the sound of these pickups!

[AlsoRan]

I just find the sound to be really "balsy" with rich whole sound (difficult to describe). Bottom line, I really like the sound of these pickups!

Thank you, thank you, thank you, folks.

"Ballsy" is just the word I would use to describe the difference. More "authoritative" might be the more politically correct description. The sound is a little more warm, less metallic -especially in the treble. And there is more of a punch. I find myself playing with less effort to get the sound out, and when I do hit that string with a strong attack, it shouts.

This was definitely a good move for me.

And for Blues songs, the bridge pickup came through.

I am pleased.

[Little Jay]

"Should I just save the $400.00 and go for a higher-end semi-hollow?".

Just wanted to add my experience too: for $50 I upgraded my '92 Korean Sheraton with a Golden Agen humbucker from Steward Macdonald and that swap turned the instrument into a serious competitor to my Gibson ES333 that is upgraded itself with classic 57s.

Maybe good to know that before the Golden Age I tried a Seymour Duncan Paf-replica (classic 59 or so?) which did not work at all in the Sheraton. Since the Sheraton is an all maple instrument it has a somewhat scooped frequency response with a mid dip and a bright top end that the SDs emphasized. The Golden Age was spot on, a lot 'fatter' sounding. So for anyone upgrading a Sheraton I always advice a pickup with a little more mids, Classic 57s should work well indeed, it's a great pickup.

I must say I play my ES-333 more than my Sheraton, because it has a feel and vibe that the Sheraton lacks, a certain liveliness and vibrancy - hard to describe, but it's more organic. The Sheraton sounds mellower, smoother, which can also be a good thing sometimes!

[AlsoRan]

I know what you mean about "livelliness." I tried a Gibson ES-335 and compared to the Sheraton II, I could feel it vibrating in my lap. And, when I plunked a string, it was almost as though I could feel the tension from the headstock.

Really hard to describe.

Thanks, LJ. I am a believer now.

[jimku]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

[Playerizor]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

If this is the case we only need one guitar style. I've more often heard the exact opposite, pick-ups have a minimal difference.

[lpdeluxe]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concrete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

That is the opposite of my experience. I had a Les Paul Deluxe that sounded great with the mini humbuckers. When the bridge pickup died, I put a set of Seymour Duncan SM-1s in it and it continued to sound great, and very similar to the way it sounded stock. I had an Epiphone Sheraton II (Samick, mid-'90s) that I thought I could improve with a set of Seymour Duncan Anniversary pickups (JB bridge, Jazz neck if I remember). It sounded about the same with either set.

One that WAS improved is my Carvin SH550, with some qualification: I took part in an online review in the forum in July 2010, and was provided with a stock Carvin SH550, equipped with the standard humbuckers. The one I own was converted to Seymour Duncan Jazzmaster Antiquity II single-coils, which is a totally different style of pickup. In that case, the SDs provided some zing not present with the originals (a friend bought the review sample, so it has not been three years since I heard it!).

Others have had the same experience. These days, if a guitar doesn't sound good unmodified, I don't buy it. And, unless something gets damaged, I don't replace anything. By the way, the Sheraton II was a nightmare to rewire. I should have traded it off instead of investing the time and money. My standard ES-335 is worlds better.

[jorgemg1984]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

The pickup is indeed quite relevant for the sound... 90% seems a little too much.

[palindrome]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

Sounds wrong to me. Two weeks ago, I got my Peerless Sunset back from pickup replacement. I went for a set of Duncan SD1s because I like the sound from that specific pickup in the neck position of my Yamaha 1511MS.

Totally different tones from both guitars now, despite the same neck pickups. I don't regret the switch, but the change is much more subtle than I anticipated. So, with this Peerless, it's clearly been a case of the guitar imposing its character on the pickup rather than the other way around (pots and wiring have been replaced as well).

[Jimmy Mack]

Well, I have to say, after many many years of playing many many guitars and quite a few amps, I think have developed a pretty good ear, and discernability because of a tuned ear. This is not to brag, it's just a fact. I've been at it and very interested in electric guitars for almost 50 years, and not too eager to plug anything that doesn't "earn its keep".

If you don't hear the differences that p/ups can bring about in a guitar's tone, a) you didn't listen CRITICALLY, b) you don't have the ear, or, c) you don't really care enough. And that's OK.

I can hear you screaming now, please don't flame me, but I do hear tonal variances between different speakers, pickups, tubes, cables, etc. I enjoy the changes. Sometimes it's just a change from "good" to "better", but sometimes it can be drastic.

One guitar - same hands and fingers, same amp, strings, speakers, and cable: pickups have gone from - stock Epiphone humbucker, Gibson 57 Classic +, SD Antiquity, Lindy Fralin h/ber, and now a DeArmond GoldTone. None were a radical change in type or character, I like the range I am in, and the p/ups were all pre-owned already, but.... each was different. And just to keep things fresh (objective) in my ear, I play other guitars and amps, so it's not just my ear getting used to something and fulfilling some pre-conceived target and gratification.

Yes, the guitar in question dictates what kind of response will ensue, but each pickup will bend the tone a little bit this way or that: fatter, thinner, brighter, duller, fatiguing highs, or maybe uninspiring. Maybe a lack of authority with a nice round tone.

Also, I demand a lot out of a guitar, I play a lot of notes and chords, rhythm, solos, country, jazz, blues. So I put the axe through its paces. If you don't play this way, I can understand that your mileage "may vary". Maybe driving a Honda is great for you, I need a Cobra, and I'm not happy without one. Yet, some of my favorites are cheap old relics from the early days that have tremendous character.

I put this forward as an insight, not to boast. Someone out there will find this interesting I hope.

[Little Jay]

Well, I have to strongly disagree with some of the above.
90% of the tone of ANY electric guitar comes from the pickups and nothing else. Be it solid body, hollow body, semi-hollow body, chunk of concete block, or chunk of railroad rail.

Hmm, well the pick-up swap I did in my Aria Sinsonido would confirm your - rather bold I think - statement. The installation of a SD Little '59 turned that guitar into a very good sounding instrument that makes people roll their eyes when they hear it. And that guitar doesn't even have a body! It's just a neck and a very little body, that just supports the tuners, electronics and a tubular frame that forms the body. So I do agree with the finding that the pickup is one of the most import elements that contributes to the sound.

But I don't agree with your 90%, my own experience is different. Which would explain why I like the same pickup in one guitar, but not in another. Otherwise I could just fit every guitar I own with the same pickup, but I found out it doesn't work that way.

[Playerizor]

You can find 57' classic in a Les Paul or a jazz box and they sure don't sound at all similar.

I think every aspect of a guitar influences the sound. The amp may have more impact than anything else.

[lpdeluxe]

There is an underlying assumption that I find a little peculiar: changing pickups or whatever always improves the sound. That doesn't make logical sense. Among bass players, it has been noted many times that replacing the simple bent-sheet metal bridge on a Fender Precision with a high mass custom bridge causes the great P sound to disappear, even though those who make the change universally believe they are "upgrading" the instrument.

When I was much younger, I road raced motorcycles, in the pre-"buy a racer at the Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha dealer" era, when we all built our own. I saw a lot of really clever individuals spend a lot of time and effort and money building the ultimate racer, and then watched them endlessly tinker with them while the rest of us were out on the track racing. This perhaps prejudiced me in a certain way.

Changing things can be a crap shoot, and I have concluded that, if I find a guitar or bass that speaks, that is enough. I'm not going to try to tart up a sow's ear into a faux silk purse. If an instrument is not satisfactory as it is, I don't believe I -- or very many other players -- have such a deep understanding of what makes a superior guitar or bass that I -- or they -- can always achieve a predicted outcome. Because it has also been my experience that two seemingly identical guitars can have very different personalities. I generally attribute this to the fact that all pieces of wood will be different, but the fact is, I don't particularly care. The guitar is an ensemble of parts and components and, if it doesn't satisfy me, that's all I need to know.

[Alder Statesman]

Well, I have to say, after many many years of playing many many guitars and quite a few amps, I think have developed a pretty good ear, and discernability because of a tuned ear. This is not to brag, it's just a fact. I've been at it and very interested in electric guitars for almost 50 years, and not too eager to plug anything that doesn't "earn its keep".

If you don't hear the differences that p/ups can bring about in a guitar's tone, a) you didn't listen CRITICALLY, b) you don't have the ear, or, c) you don't really care enough. And that's OK.

I can hear you screaming now, please don't flame me, but I do hear tonal variances between different speakers, pickups, tubes, cables, etc. I enjoy the changes. Sometimes it's just a change from "good" to "better", but sometimes it can be drastic.

One guitar - same hands and fingers, same amp, strings, speakers, and cable: pickups have gone from - stock Epiphone humbucker, Gibson 57 Classic +, SD Antiquity, Lindy Fralin h/ber, and now a DeArmond GoldTone. None were a radical change in type or character, I like the range I am in, and the p/ups were all pre-owned already, but.... each was different. And just to keep things fresh (objective) in my ear, I play other guitars and amps, so it's not just my ear getting used to something and fulfilling some pre-conceived target and gratification.

Yes, the guitar in question dictates what kind of response will ensue, but each pickup will bend the tone a little bit this way or that: fatter, thinner, brighter, duller, fatiguing highs, or maybe uninspiring. Maybe a lack of authority with a nice round tone.

Also, I demand a lot out of a guitar, I play a lot of notes and chords, rhythm, solos, country, jazz, blues. So I put the axe through its paces. If you don't play this way, I can understand that your mileage "may vary". Maybe driving a Honda is great for you, I need a Cobra, and I'm not happy without one. Yet, some of my favorites are cheap old relics from the early days that have tremendous character.

I put this forward as an insight, not to boast. Someone out there will find this interesting I hope.

Having just upgraded a 2006 Broadway to 57 Classic at the neck and 57 Classic + at the bridge, as well as replacing pots and caps with higher quality components, my discerning ears can tell the difference. More importantly, the uninitiated have commented "Wow, your guitar sounds great! What have you done or how are you playing differently?"

So I agree with Jimmy.

This is a touchy topic and I found myself in a pi**ing match with a couple guys on another site (maybe it was one guy and his sock puppet) arguing over pickups versus capacitors versus wood versus "I read on the DiMarzio site......" In the end I concluded some folks should turn down their iPods to avoid damaging their hearing.

Great tone is the SUM of the parts. This begins with a decent guitar. I would not spend $450+ on pups and components for a bolt-on neck Les Paul, but I was confident the upgrde would yield incredible and noticeable results to my Broadway. The amp also has a lot to do with it as does a decent cable. A great guitar and great amp will sound like garbage with poorly shielded $6 cable. A discerning ear to tell the difference is key as well.

[mcstrange]

Hi,

I took the plunge after reading about how crap the stock pup's are and bought some pups off Amazon to have a try and see.

Wiring diagrams all show a live and ground wire coming off the pups but when I took the decision to cut...ouch. The neck pup has only one wire coming out. And a lot thicker than the wires on the replacement pups combined [ground and live].

It's a korean 2004 Unsung factory model, plays like butter and I am not letting her go, immaculate but maybe somebody can tell me what is going on? The neck pup is like a roll on off without volume, I am in need of advice as to what to do..

[Franz 1997]

Don't worry. The stock pickups have at least 2 wires, but they will be small wires inside an outer casing of some sort. What you need to do is very carefully separate the small signal wires from the outer casing. There could be 1 wire and a metal braid, or there could be 2 wires and a metal braid, in which case one of the signal wires will need to be connected to the metal braid.

It sounds from this as if you are going to try to connect the wires from the new pickups to the remains of the wires from the old pickups. That's not the 'best' way, but it does work if you are careful and can solder and insulate the wires competently.

[s1track3d]

It sounds from this as if you are going to try to connect the wires from the new pickups to the remains of the wires from the old pickups. That's not the 'best' way, but it does work if you are careful and can solder and insulate the wires competently.

I agree with Franz. If you going to do this you should do it the right way, your guitar deserves it. Get a soldering iron, some solder and flux, un-solder the current pickups from the pots and solder the new ones in.

You don't indicate what replacement pickups you bought, so it's hard to know what they are or if they are an improvement but here is a Seymour Duncan wiring schematic which gives the general idea. Wiring Diagram

I would spend the day on youtube and google reading and watching the various ways to do this, it's doable but can be tedious and tricky the first time. Some prefer to just let a tech do it, it's usually about $100.

(Also, just because someone says the stock pickups are crap, does not make it so)

[Little Jay]

Be careful with the Sheraton! Brighter pickups with a mid dip don't work well in that guitar imho! (It's an all maple guitar with some inherent brightness and a somewhat scooped sound of itself) I tried SD 59s, which are quality pickups, but they didn't do too well, cheaper Stewmac Golden Age hb's worked much better! (My Sheraton is an early 90ies Korean one btw). Oh and don't bother upgrading the wiring harness and caps, it does nothing to the sound I can tell you from experience (and I think your 2005 already came with a solid switch and large Alpha pots, right? They work fine and feel solid).