Gretsch 5120 Electromatic for Jazz

**Archtop Guy** · 11-30-2011, 11:19 AM

Point is, Gretsch was good enough for them,and sounded good enough for us to enjoy their music. Perhaps Gretsch has been overlooked by the modern player?I haven't played any of them but, they sure look good. That 400 series looks as good as it did originally.

**dan duffy** · 11-30-2011, 11:29 AM

The 1st 7 string was made for george was about 1960. It is like the Country club only the body was thinner. Around 1965 Jimmy webster got George to indorse the guitar. Jimmy changed the guitar and put all the frills on it. I thought it was a very stupin move. what Jazz player wants a Padded pack, the tuneing fork bridge that you had trouble changeing strings? George always played his first guitar we made. At the namm shows he played the new model, He never said anythig about all the frills on the guitar because thts the kind of person he was. No matter which guitar he played he was always outstanding. Dan Duffy

**cjm** · 11-30-2011, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Archtop Guy

Point is, Gretsch was good enough for them,and sounded good enough for us to enjoy their music. Perhaps Gretsch has been overlooked by the modern player?I haven't played any of them but, they sure look good. That 400 series looks as good as it did originally.

Problem is, they don't make most of the models associated with jazzers any longer. And although many of those guitars were less expensive than competitive models from Gibson and Epiphone when new, they were also often a bit rough in terms of quality of materials. Just for one example, Gretsch is probably the most susceptible to issues like binding rot if compared to Epiphone, Gibson and Guild guitars built at the same time. But because they are "vintage" guitars, you still have to pay a considerable premium over and above their intrinsic value as instruments...with or without structural problems.

You mentioned the G400 Synchromatic. It really isn't the same as a Synchromatic from "back in the day." Its got a press formed top. Not that Gretsch was comparable to D'Angelico, but it's about like comparing the mass produced pressed top "D'Angelicos" of today with the original hard carved creations of John D'Angelico...same name, different guitar, and the name is intended to evoke an emotional response to permit raising the price a few hundred dollars.

I'm actually a fan of some of the old Gretsch guitars. Some of the 1950s fully hollow Electromatic plywood archtops with a single Dynasonic pickup really nail an exciting amplified jazz sound (to my ears) better than the P90 equipped Gibsons they competed with.

But finding one at a decent price and without a lot of issues is not easy.

**Steve Z** · 12-01-2011, 12:31 PM

Here is a great Gretsch jazz guitar video I just came across... wonderful tone and playing by Richard Blake.

**Archtop Guy** · 12-01-2011, 04:02 PM

Hi Steve, Great video. I think I'm going to enjoy this forum alot!

**va3ux** · 12-01-2011, 09:56 PM

George Van Eps used nothing but a Gretsch from sometime in the 60's until his death.

**zigzag** · 12-02-2011, 04:39 PM

The Gretsch in the Richard Blake video sounds great, but those are not Dynasonic or Filtertron pups.

**Steve Z** · 12-02-2011, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

The Gretsch in the Richard Blake video sounds great, but those are not Dynasonic or Filtertron pups.

True, but it is still a Gretsch. The thread is referring to Gretsch guitars used for jazz and not necessarily the standard Getsch style Dynasonic or Filtertron pup, which I find to be too bright sounding. I rather like the idea of the Gretsch with standard style humbuckers... really no different than any other guitar swapping a pickup... P-90 for humbucker, single coil for humbucker, humbucker for Charlie Christian, etc...

**zigzag** · 12-02-2011, 05:43 PM

Even though I own a Gretsch, I'm not a historian of their equipment. I've just looked through their complete line and except for the Eddie Cochran model with P-90, I'm not seeing any pickups other than Dynasonics or Filtertrons. Are the pickups in that Richard Blake video stock Gretsch pickups?

**dan duffy** · 12-02-2011, 05:51 PM

That pickup is the standard pickup that comes with the guitar. It is called Hi-Lo Tron pickup. Single coil and single magnet. Originally designed and made In the Brooklyn factory for the Sal Salvador model 6199 around 1960. Dan Duffy

**ES125er** · 12-03-2011, 04:05 AM

Jakob Bro:

Anton Goudsmit:

(All random videos, there might be better ones on youtube)

**dan duffy** · 12-03-2011, 10:41 AM

Jakob Bro---- this is a sterio White Falcon, played through two separate speakers, one on the right and one on the left. The lone switch on the 1st position is stereo 123 strings sound through right speaker , 456 strings play through left speaker. 2- pos. play 6 strings through both speakers, 3 - pos. play 6 strings through 1 speaker. Other switchers are pickup selector switches , tone switches and volume controls.

BRAD SHEPIKS is a 6120 chet atkins guitar.

ANTON SHEPIKS is a 1950's country club Dan Duffy

**JaggedToaster** · 12-03-2011, 03:55 PM

So from reading this thread and what I hear is wrong with Gretsch guitars for Jazz that with some modding it could be easily overcome.

where I hear that Gretsch is ill suited for jazz is
- Pickups are too twangy
- Bigsby is not a good tailpeice
- Orange paint

So it seems with a couple simple mods one could convert an electromatic 5120 into a decent jazz guitar.

I might look at ordering some goldenage PAF's and a floating tailpiece. It will still be orange, but like the color.

**cjm** · 12-03-2011, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by JaggedToaster

where I hear that Gretsch is ill suited for jazz is
- Pickups are too twangy
- Bigsby is not a good tailpeice
- Orange paint

So it seems with a couple simple mods one could convert an electromatic 5120 into a decent jazz guitar.

I might look at ordering some goldenage PAF's and a floating tailpiece. It will still be orange, but like the color.

A common complaint among Gretsch fans about the 5120 is that the stock pickups are "too jazzy" and "not twangy enough." Rock a billy players sort of co-opted the company's marketing phrase "That Great Gretsch Sound" to define the Gretsch sound as twangy...but most of them also like Telecasters played through the bridge pickup, and go for that sound deliberately through their string selection, reliance on the bridge pickup, and a picking position nearer the bridge than most jazzers use.

Now, this complaint of sounding "too jazzy" is leveled against the 5120's "Gretschbucker" pickups, but not usually against the Filtertron equipped 6120, which is sort of an iconic rock a billy guitar.

However, you can go to youtube and listen to Cal Collins playing a Filtertron equipped 6120 with Benny Goodman, and I think you'll agree he's getting a good jazz sound.

Go figure.

I'd ditch the Bigsby and maybe install a new bridge, but I wouldn't get in a big toot about ordering new pickups until after listening to the guitar with a regular tailpiece and bridge...and not until after some experimentation with different strings.

And I'd also suggest forgetting that the guitar even has a bridge pickup...even if you do a pickup upgrade, there's no point in spending more money to upgrade the bridge pickup if you are really serious about getting a jazz sound from a 5120.

**anothersixstringer** · 12-03-2011, 11:38 PM

On defining Jazz : "Travis Jackson has also proposed a broader definition of jazz which is able to encompass all of the radically different eras: he states that it is music that includes qualities such as "swinging", improvising, group interaction, developing an 'individual voice', and being 'open' to different musical possibilities" (Quick Wikipedia Quote)

I don't know about you guys, but playing my Gretsch(s) for my "jazzy" adventures, makes me happy

but, what do I know? After all, I am the guy who also tries to jazz out a Rickenbacker (ooops...!)

Thanks for the enlightment, I will make myself available to the Jazz Police

btw. Mr Duffy, such an honour to have you on this forum, thanks for your insight to this thread.
btw2, yep I posted all of these videos before on the Video area of the forum, sorry for the dup post

**fauves** · 12-04-2011, 01:32 AM

hey another sixstringer, great clips. In fact I had watched it a couple of times months ago. You helped me make up my mind that I didnt need that eastman my gretsch has all the sounds I want right there.

**Gaetan** · 12-04-2011, 02:19 AM

Here is a good demo with an inexpansive axe

**Retroman1969** · 12-04-2011, 08:06 AM

Great, now I'm starting to want to add an orange 5120 to the stable. Swap the pups and call it good.

PS: also wish to extend my thanks to Dan Duffy for his info. Cuts through a lot of speculation to talk to someone who was there.

**reventlov** · 12-04-2011, 09:24 AM

I've owned 6 Gretsches over the years - currently I have 2, a 5120 with TV Jones pickups and an Anniversary model with HiLotron pickups (which a couple of people in earlier posts wrongly suggested were not stock Gretsch pickups at all).

I play lots of jazz, have done for decades including several years doing it for a living; I've had Gibsons, Epiphones, Guilds amongst other makes, and I'd rate 4 of my 6 Gretsches as being superior for jazz than any of them. HiLotrons can give a very traditional, woody sound if matched with the right amp - and let's not forget that the amp is a huge part of the sound too, no matter what guitar you are using. Filtertron pickups also can get a quite traditional jazz guitar sound, and can also be cranked to produce nice distortion and sharpness if fusion or jazz-rock sounds are your thing.

Also - as regards the appearance....while Gretsch do make some guitars with just too much 'bling' for most jazzers....can anyone tell me what, to a mainstream jazz player, is wrong with this?

They're not ALL orange and bigsby's and gloss y'know......

**cjm** · 12-04-2011, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by reventlov

They're not ALL orange and bigsby's and gloss y'know......

Quite true...however Gretsch/Fender won't sell you an Anniversary today configured like the one in the picture you posted the link to.

**backliner** · 12-04-2011, 11:08 AM

I like my Gretsch Country Club guitar with Dynasonic pickups for so-called "jazz" sounds.

I like that it's bright enough so that when I roll off some treble with the tone pot to get the treble strings fluffy sounding, the bass strings don't get mushy sounding.

It's also versatile enough that if our singer calls for a Ray Charles version of "You Don't Know Me," I can blend in a skoash of "country" tonality.

In the past I've used more traditionally built "jazz" type archtops, but some fed back even at quite low volumes.

I rarely use the Bigsby tailpiece, but it seems to add some mass back there and works well enough with the so-called "Melita" syncrosonic bridge that I don't worry about it.

I'm no smokin' Be-Bopper, but the guitar gets compliments for its sound when I play through a midrangey "tweed" type tube amp clone by a modern maker.

**dan duffy** · 12-10-2011, 08:21 AM

I have been hanging around this Jazz site for years now and have found it to be a great read. Lots of good info for Jazz guitar. Being that this thread came up about Gretsch Guitars I thought some of you might be interested in the book I wrote back in 2007. Its about my time as Quality controller for the gretsch guitar company in brooklyn N.Y. from 1957 to 1970. In 1970 they moved the factory to Boonesville Ark.