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Well if you sill have to struggle a lot in order to make a decent jazz solo, just find a good guitar and a good a good amp and go practice. If you already can play decently or even good its up to you: some players just need a guitar and an amp others need more gear. Gear can improve your sound and can help you achieve certain things. It doesn't teach you.
In my case I already have several guitars and several amps I love. I need to improve my pedalboard in order to be able to have several setups to several situations and I also want an old RAT pedal with the LM308 chip because I love that sound and cant find it in other pedals. This is relevant to me, it might not be to you but its certainly not a waste time. I have learned a lot about gear in the last year and a half and my sound improved a lot because I use a better amp, better pickups, better strings, better cables than I used before. I notice the difference. Of course I also practiced A LOT in this last year. I will have much less time the next year and I am also almost finished (for now) in my gear search so I will spend much less time with these things. But I don't feel I wasted my time.
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09-27-2011 04:51 PM
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A high end guitar will not make you a better player.
Playing a 1950 D'Angelico New Yorker cutaway will never make me a better guitarist. It'll just make me pee myself.
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It depends. If you are a really good player just the sound of an excellent guitar can really make you elevate your playing. A phenomenal local player bought a Zeidler and he is crazy with it, he says nothing sounds like that. And he already had a very good Gibson and an excellent sound. Bernstein already played beautifully with its vintage 175 and also went with Zeidler. And in my case (nowhere near the level of the two players I mentioned) I just fell in love with my old Guild X-500 some years ago. The guitar was on my tech for some months recently and I was getting crazy.. I have played a lot of archtops and that one makes me play better and was worth the total money invested so far (around 3500€).
Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
A high end guitar will not make you a better player.
Playing a 1950 D'Angelico New Yorker cutaway will never make me a better guitarist. It'll just make me pee myself.
If you are just an ok or amateur player that's probably true, an expensive guitar wont make you play better.
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Everyone's making sense here. More practice time is worth far more to one's musicianship than a nicer guitar. But I'll have more personal enjoyment spending that practice time playing something I love, so if I can find and buy a guitar like that without harming my family, then by golly I certainly will.
It's the trap of doing that over and over again that is potentially wasteful and counter-productive. I've had that problem for quite a few years now, but I genuinely believe it's waning. I just purged by selling 9 guitars!
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Originally Posted by rpguitar
"It's the trap of doing that over and over again that is potentially wasteful and counter-productive. I've had that problem for quite a few years now, but I genuinely believe it's waning. I just purged by selling 9 guitars!"
It can be a trap if not managed with discipline and understanding of how much of a person's disposable income is actually discretionary. This is more true of those who live mostly on immediate income with little or no reserve funds. It also depends on a knowledge of the market and the guitars we lust after. If done correctly, one never "spends" money on a guitar. It's usually just a transfer of assets. One can choose to have, let's say . . . $75,000 in a relatively low interest fund or investment vehicle of some sort . . . or . . . own $75,000 worth of fine, desirable easy to liquidate guitars.
I too have just scaled back. I sold 6 guitars within the last 3 months or so. I relpaced them with 3 guitars of a total equal value equivelant to the 6 I sold. I've targeted 4 others in my collection that I will also sell . . . using the funds from the sale of those to acquire a Gibson Citation and another yet to be determined. I am also working on a special spec for a new build from Heritage. I'm pretty sure it will be a Super Eagle with a Florentine cutaway. Uncertain about all else.Last edited by Patrick2; 09-28-2011 at 06:46 PM.
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@ rpguitar & jorgemg1984: I totally agree about enjoyment of the instrument. If i feel connected, or love the sound that is coming from the guitar, i find that i practice better, and feel exhilarated afterwards like going for a jog. It is pretty important how you feel about the instrument.
Wow. I never thought it about it that way. THANK YOU! This makes total sense. Originally Posted by Drifter
I'm not a great player so for me it has always been a guilt thing, like i haven't earned it. Why should i have a better guitar than someone who has spent their life playing / putting the hours in? ...like a rich kid with nice toys. I feel like it is disrespectful.
Recently i decided that was silly and was just going to bite the bullet and put a downpayment on a custom guitar, because—newsflash—i'm going to die someday. Hopefully it gets finished before i do!
For the record though, people that own boats are a**holes. (kidding!)
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If you can afford it and its a dream go for it. Its like saying you have to be a pro driver to have a Porsche or a Ferrari - no one drives better just because of that. But if it makes you happy... A good instrument can really inspire you and just talk with guys that play other instruments like piano, sax or double bass. They ALL enjoy a good instrument! Originally Posted by spiral
A friend of mine used to say his happiest day with his boat was the day he sold it
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You are... but not because of the boat. Originally Posted by Pierrot
So I'm an a**hole, uh!
LOL. Boats always stick in my mind because in "Life's Little Instruction Book" there is a page that just says "121. Resist the temptation to buy a boat" which i think is hilarious. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
A friend of mine used to say his happiest day with his boat was the day he sold it
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Well, a while back my "Jazz Guitar" was a Korean Epi Joe Pass, and I though it was fine. I was not a beginning guitarist, but I was pretty much a beginner in Jazz Guitar, so I felt that was appropriate to my level.
And I worked pretty hard with it. I kept hitting brick walls, but I took lessons and learned stuff and eventually got to the point where I was getting better. And I was going to take a step up to a Guild - the guy who was selling had a Manhattan and a Savoy, both of which were pushing my budget, but in my eyes were for better guitarists than me. However, I felt that I could grow into one or other.
Except that the guy was also selling a Vestax D'Angelico NYL-5...you can guess. And I felt for a long time that was another step up that was a bit beyond me.
So, after getting my attitude kicked by a certain Mr. Kreisberg (ooo, name dropper ), I began some serious 'shedding. I'm still not where I'd like to be. However, nearly 3 years down the line, I'm starting to feel at home with her.
Now the dimensions, fingerboard width, and feel of the D'A all suited me better than the Epi, but that alone didn't justify all the extra £££'s. It's only now, with lots of time and effort spent on improvement, that I feel like I'm getting to the point where I can justify going out and buying a guitar like that......34 months after I already bought it
.
On the other hand, a friend has a Benedetto Fratello. I've tried it. Not sure that I will live long enough to afford it, let alone to become good enough to be the sort of player who I think deserves such a beautiful instrument.
Still.....nice to have a target, eh?
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Alohajoe,
Why not?
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Oh! I see, you are an expert, in a**holeness. Originally Posted by spiral
You are... but not because of the boat.
.
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Ha. True. Originally Posted by Pierrot
Oh! I see, you are an expert, in a**holeness.
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Great
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I will offer a very simple response. Every guitar has it's own ”thing" and often, that "thing" inspires you to take things to the next level. A new bike will make you ride more. A new guitar that you love will make you play more. And a guitar that is hand made often DOES sound and play better than a Washburn or an Ibanez and it WILL inspire you to play more and take your playing to the next level, vs, say, another twelve weeks of modes or scales. So, the one thing you are missing in your response - which I agree with in principle - is the same thing that drives our economy in the USA - objects of desire and the effect they have on your art and ultimately, your ability. Originally Posted by cjm
Bob
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I'm sort of hesitant to say this, because I know it's something that can ruffle feathers, but I also think it needs to be said: Either the guitar player is inspired by the music, or he or she is not. Originally Posted by uburoibob
Over the years, I have found it very interesting that the first real generation of jazz guitarists to follow in Charlie Christian's footsteps began their professional careers playing guitars that are today highly sought after and accorded almost reverence for their quality and tone. Guitars that are considered to be near the apex of "vintage" high end archtops.
No real mystery there...that's mostly what was available. Professionals played carved spruce and they added DeArmond pickups and the like to electrify them. Factory electrics were mostly carved -- the original ES-150 had a solid top.
But when laminate electric archtops began to be produced in large numbers, many (and actually, I submit most) of the most highly regarded jazz guitarists moved "down market" from their L5s and Super 400s and Epiphone Emperors and what have you to guitars in the class of the ES-175 and ES-350. Dirt plain plywood boxes with pickups. There are notable exceptions, but these exceptions are not representative of the majority.
Just something to think about...
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Originally Posted by cjm
I agree that music is of primary importance. But the phrase, which has become vernacular for stressing personal tastes/experiences is "your mileage may vary" and each of us has more than one button to push.
It is a very different world than the one that sprang up around WWII. Sure, most performing artists went with plywood guitars due to feedback, etc, but even when I was cutting my teeth in the late 60s, DAs of both persuasions, L5s, L7s, etc, etc were what we were taking our lessons on. They are what our teachers told us were the pinnacles of tone and taught us to find our voices and tone in those guitars, with all due respect to the masters who used them. The guitar never became more important than the music, but the quality of the tools was always iterated. Sure, someone can play on a cheap guitar and get a paycheck, but the quality of the experience isn't always great and is sometimes just plain disappointing. Same with guitars from great builders. But the law of averages is GREATLY weighted to having a great experience from playing a great guitar, vs the likelihood of finding a pedestrian, made-in-wherever guitar that produces great tone or inspires you to play it.
I am on, seemingly, a one man crusade to show that there are colors between black and white. It doesn't have to be music or instrument - it can be both and in varying degrees. Just like it doesn't have to be one political party or the other or one religion or the other or what have you.
If you've never experienced the joy of playing an instrument from a master luthier and seen how it can take you beyond what you know you can do, I don't know what to say. But the experience is real and it's not limited to me.
Anyway, that's my take on it. Your mileage may vary...
Bob
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The same thing seems to be happening today at a more local level as some underpaid professionals I know move 'down market' to find reasonably priced but good quality imports that work for them and don't cost more than their car. Originally Posted by cjm
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If I had never owned or played any high end archtops, I would not have expressed the opinion I presented. I probably would not even have an opinion on the subject...merely curiosity about what these guitars offer. Originally Posted by uburoibob
Certainly, there is room for diversity of opinion, and what I offer is opinion (although, as any fool can plainly see, I am correct ).
Just kiddin' with ya'.
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Although it's not quite the same situation. Probably comes as a surprise to a lot of younger players today, but a used L5 was a pretty common pawn shop guitar back in the day (and we're talkin' some pretty sleazy pawnshops at that). They weren't collector's items. Originally Posted by AlohaJoe
In 1951, it was done as a move to a guitar better suited to playing jazz -- not as a cost cutting or profit taking move -- even though the guitars they were switching to are usually regarded as "inferior" because they are plywood.
So, in many cases, we're talking about players selling off some exquisite carved guitars with McCarty pickups and DeArmond Rhythm Chiefs at the bottom of the market and replacing them with new ES-175's and the like for a net out of pocket expense.
Today, the players are taking what profit they can from a relatively expensive and sought after guitar...replacing it with a cheaper ax and pocketing the difference.
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I am in the lucky position of having a good day gig, yet being pretty totally committed to my music. And have been for a long time. So it's easy for me to bloviate about great guitars - because, with the exception of some REALLY expensive stuff, they are within reach for me. And I count my lucky stars for that every day of my life. And, I have managed to become friends with a few of the guys building these guitars. Steve Andersen is a great friend who I've known since the late 90s. Ken Parker has been a friend since the mid 70s. Between the two of them, I know the two best builders in the world (in my opinion). So it's easy to see it from both sides.
In any case - it IS all about the music. The gear is tertiary to the music. The sound comes from the head, heart and hands - not the guitar. But I sure love it when I can bring the head, heart and hands to an instrument that someone has built using those three things to craft - and it's an incredible guitar.
Bob
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I would agree with most of that for electrics. An electric guitar is really a platform to build a sound. If it has the specs you want (scale, nut, etc.) you can swap in all manner of pickups to get the sound you want. You can get an insanely awesome guitar for $500 these days and many that will rival a "vintage" / trashed relic. Also, why someone will pay $1000 or more for a Telecaster or Stratocaster copy is beyond me, but i'm not their audience. So if we are talking purely electric upper-end guitars i'm 100% with you. Originally Posted by cjm
But I feel like when we are talking big money archtops (Andersen, Campellone, Benedetto, etc.), people are paying the big $$$ for the acoustic sound, because of all the experience and money spent on carving nice woods. It seems like acoustic guitars are in a whole other category because of that. I could piece together a Telecaster very easily. I couldn't begin to build an acoustic archtop.
If that isn't true, and you paid big money for your guitar for gigging, i would be curious to hear why.Last edited by spiral; 10-08-2011 at 08:43 PM.
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It's true. And when I referenced playing these wonderful guitars when starting out with Jazz teachers in the late 60s, we were getting them for a whole lot less than new Strats or Les Pauls. They were really worth not much at all, including D'Angelicos... so... it's come full circle. Originally Posted by cjm
Bob
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And those luthiers are indeed artists in their own right...they create works of art, not merely artifacts. Originally Posted by uburoibob
An original Picasso or Monet hanging on the wall of one's living room should inspire one to greater heights too, but for some reason, that is almost never cited as necessary to playing guitar.
The mess my dog just left on the floor does have a certain Impressionist look to it...I better clean it up and go take a shower myself. I got a gig again tonight and even though I don't really want to play it, duty calls. The puke isn't inspiring me, even if it does have a rich texture...
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As I see it, a great guitar (high quality, good acoustic tone, well suited for you as a player) can inspire and help you improve your playing - both because you respond to the quality, and because its possible for it to attain sounds not attainable with a lower quality instrument.
But the key is that you are ready to go there - that you are prepared to respond to where the instrument can take you.
And going along with this, what I think some folks are saying, is that there's no guarantee that a better instrument will result in better playing - in any case, it has to come from the player.
I've been lucky enough to play and own some terrific instruments (some expensive, but not super-expensive) and can say from experience that a superior instrument can take you places, and make you want to practice more. But guitars are "objects of desire" as someone said, and I try not to get caught up in the lust for guitars because of extra-musical reasons.
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As some Of you know, I recently forked over the cash to pick up a Originally Posted by spiral
Campellone Deluxe. My reasoning was simple. I wanted both the ambience of the acoustic tone, with the backing of my deluxe reverb. It is a beautiful combo when you can hear both the acoustic tone and the surround of a good amp. When I was looking for "that sound" I personally found it to be a no brainer between a plywood box and a true carved instrument. Would it have mattered if my Campy was $500 or $5000? Sure I would have prefered the $500, but was happy to pay what I did to be done with it and get the sound I was looking for.
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