For a warmer, less acoustic sound should I be looking at a laminate build?

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 06:54 PM

Was Pat Martino playing a 175 on the early stuff - El Hombre - for example?

Also, according to the video some of the 175s feature mahogany construction instead of maple...

Sorry if these questions are n00bish. For the longest time I've been a solid-body player...

**mr. beaumont** · 08-30-2011, 06:56 PM

I do think you pretty much answered your own question in the first post.

For the most part though, anything with a routed neck humbucker, a slightly rolled back tone knob, and a good amp will get you there. That gives you a lot of options...

If you find that most of your favorites play a 175, that's not a bad place to start.

**Vihar** · 08-30-2011, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

Was Pat Martino playing a 175 on the early stuff - El Hombre - for example?

I'm pretty sure it was his Gibson Les Paul Custom his father bought him as a kid.

Here's an interview with him where he talks about it briefly: Pat Martino | Vintage Guitar® magazine

"Was that Les Paul Custom the one you played in the first phase of your professional career?

Yes, I played it for many years."

EDIT: Nope. I was wrong with assuming that, since the LP Custom got stolen in 1965. It was a Johnny Smith model on El Hombre, so the album cover is correct as well (rare case, lol).

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:08 PM

I think it'd be hard to go wrong. How do you guys find the current day 175s?

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Vihar

I'm pretty sure it was his Gibson Les Paul Custom his father bought him as a kid.

Here's an interview with him where he talks about it briefly: Pat Martino | Vintage Guitar® magazine

"Was that Les Paul Custom the one you played in the first phase of your professional career?

Yes, I played it for many years."

Heh, interesting. Thanks. Sorry if I came off as rude in earlier posts, btw.

**Stackabones** · 08-30-2011, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

I think it'd be hard to go wrong. How do you guys find the current day 175s?

Very expensive and perhaps just a tad too expensive.

I considered an Epiphone ES175 till I found a used Epiphone Zephyr Regent (basically a one pup ES-175). Very, very happy with it.

**Vihar** · 08-30-2011, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

Heh, interesting. Thanks. Sorry if I came off as rude in earlier posts, btw.

No problem, and as you can see, it was a Gibson Johnny Smith not the Les Paul. lol

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

Very expensive and perhaps just a tad too expensive.

I considered an Epiphone ES175 till I found a used Epiphone Zephyr Regent (basically a one pup ES-175). Very, very happy with it.

Yeah, nothing gibson makes (of any worth!) is cheap. I might keep my eyes open for a good second hand one. The good thing about Gibson is that they really keep their value. They're a good investment.

**Vihar** · 08-30-2011, 07:23 PM

Just to add a little more to this topic. There's a certain "bounce" in the sound of an archtop that comes through the amp when amplified through a regular magnetic pickup. It's the resonance of the top of the guitar, transferred to the bridge and the strings. It's not a major difference compared to a solidbody, but it's usually audible (depending on the equalization). But I can't tell by listening if it's a Gretsch model with laminate top and no f-holes or an L-5 with carved solid spruce top.

Also, Tuck Andress admits he can get pretty much the same tone out of his old L-5 and an Austin Hatchet travel guitar.

Originally Posted by Tuck Andress

Incidentally, your guitar is a factor, too, but not as big a one as most people think, in my experience. By the time you really optimize the electronic part of it, you can pretty much blow a great guitar away with even a mediocre guitar. On our newest album, Paradise Found, I recorded the two band tracks using a cheap Korean travel guitar (Austin Hatchet) with totally dead strings that I carry on the plane as a backup. But it is wired electronically the same as my L-5s, and a lot of EQ was used in mixing. Most people won't have any idea that it's a different guitar.

**stevedenver** · 08-30-2011, 07:28 PM

while a newbie
ive been researchign and reading a lot
on this issue

in a nutshell -
laminated tops, be they spruce or maple, tend to be stronger, and tend to feedback less
this is combined with a different bracing pattern, usually and in the best case, if a pup is IN the top versus floating

if you read about the sound of an L4 CES versus a ES 175-generally-the spruce will be more articulate and possibly a bit more 'treble'
a mounted in the top pick up will probably give you that warmer rounder sound

i have an accoustic archtop with solid spruce top and floater pup-it is quite articulate, even finger style and using flats-but i would not call it treble-to my mind its simply a better balance among all the strings and different registers as well-but its NOT the sound of a Tal or 175

but as much as it GAULS ME to agree with vihar (LOL!! ah umnae) hes quite right-i think its much more about eq'ing what youve got-i have an active elctronics LP that is normally very clear and almost bright-but it can be tweaked to sound liek a 175-almost

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:30 PM

Interesting.

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:34 PM

The Ibanez Benson models - would I be right in saying they're almost like a scaled down 175? The only thing that puts me off the 175 is the size. Even though I'm 6ft they still feel like a big guitar.

**Pierrot** · 08-30-2011, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

The Ibanez Benson models - would I be right in saying they're almost like a scaled down 175? The only thing that puts me off the 175 is the size. Even though I'm 6ft they still feel like a big guitar.

hmmm....I have a GB15, and it's got a floating PU.
PUs on a ES175 are usually set up.

Tone is (to my ears) totally different: darker and drier (very short sustain, notes very differentiated one from each other, distinct articulation) in the GB, a bit brighter and more "wet" in the 175.

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:44 PM

Yeah. I couldn't judge from the pictures of the Benson whether the pickups were floating or set, at least in the GB10. Even Ibanez say that it doesn't sustain much. I dunno if I'd like that.

**Pierrot** · 08-30-2011, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

Yeah. I couldn't judge from the pictures of the Benson whether the pickups were floating or set, at least in the GB10. Even Ibanez say that it doesn't sustain much. I dunno if I'd like that.

U like Benson?

**Loobs** · 08-30-2011, 07:50 PM

I do. I dunno if I'd enjoy playing that guitar so much though.

**Pierrot** · 08-30-2011, 07:57 PM

Sorry, can't help you with that...Try one if you get the opportunity, they are with no doubt worth a try. Very good value for the money...especially if you compare with Sadowskys, Benedettos, Collings, etc...also laminate...

**rpguitar** · 08-30-2011, 07:57 PM

Loobs, have you ever played a nice ES-175? They are too often generalized for the purpose of summarizing their characteristics in discussions like this. Sure, they easily produce that classic, dark liquid tone. But they are really quite versatile, especially the 2 pickup "D" model. They are like a thicker, crisper, more articulate ES-335 in a way.

I own a '57, and after playing various carved top guitars with floaters, I'm falling in love with it all over again. The laminate construction and set pickups combine to produce a smoother, more controllable and dynamic electric tone that I find more expressive than the floating pickup flavors. I play with the tone knob all the way open. Pick attack and positioning offer many variations in tone. Using both pickups with the bridge volume nudged back slightly yields a slightly acoustic, shimmery sound that you can finesse nicely. Yes, both pickups! Imagine that. Jazz is not all about dark, warm tones that sound like poofy sofa cushions. And neither is the humble, yet incredible ES-175.

Give one a try with round wound 12's (not flats) and report back.

**Vihar** · 08-30-2011, 08:07 PM

How about something like an Epiphone Casino/Gibson ES-330?

**Revelation** · 08-30-2011, 09:19 PM

I have learned the laminate or solid top is just one part of the chain. The whole design of the guitar, type of wood, thickness, pickups, amp, and the player themselves all are related in getting the sound. I saw George Benson play a Strat and guess what, it sounded like George Benson.

**helios** · 08-30-2011, 09:26 PM

Speaking of Gibson ES-330's with P90's, Here's another video:

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 08-30-2011, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Loobs

I think it'd be hard to go wrong. How do you guys find the current day 175s?

Expensive.

In the 175 style, a lot of people say the Sadowsky Jim Hall model is rather nice.

**stegre** · 08-31-2011, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

I'm pretty sure it was his Gibson Les Paul Custom his father bought him as a kid.

Here's an interview with him where he talks about it briefly: Pat Martino | Vintage Guitar® magazine

"Was that Les Paul Custom the one you played in the first phase of your professional career?

Yes, I played it for many years."

EDIT: Nope. I was wrong with assuming that, since the LP Custom got stolen in 1965. It was a Johnny Smith model on El Hombre, so the album cover is correct as well (rare case, lol).

Well kind of... Pat played an L5 on El Hombre and Strings

**Bill C** · 08-31-2011, 01:59 AM

In my experience laminates DO generally sound different from carved top guitars (with or without built-in pickups). Sure, it can be a very subtle difference, but to my ears the carved guitars tend to sound almost too "pure" and can sound shrill in the upper registers. The laminates tend to have a muted, "bitter/sweet" timbre.

Again, I think there are limits to what you can do with EQ. To my ears a specific guitar has a distinctive sound and EQ and effects can't change that essential character. As an analogy, an experienced recording engineer will tell you to get the sound right at source rather than fixing it in the mix.

Some might say I'm splitting hairs, but if you as the player hear it, it matters imo. Just my opinion ...

**stegre** · 08-31-2011, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Bill C

Some might say I'm splitting hairs, but if you as the player hear it, it matters imo. Just my opinion ...

That is the true test, if you can hear it, it is important. That is why we are coming out with several laminate guitars (AR403CE, AR371 and one more I can't talk about yet). There is a market for different sound that our other archtops.

My personal favorite so far is a carved top/ laminate back and sides, in-body humbucking (AR503CE). Love it..

Well, that one AND a very special prototype, an AR810CE carved solid top/back and sides with a single body mounted humbucking... ymmm..

Steve -- Eastman