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Hey all,
I'm currently in the process of buying my first hollowbody/archtop guitar for jazz band but I've been having trouble finding what I want. I live in Los Angeles and I've only been able to play a few instruments. I've played a few eastmans (which I didn't like), a gibson ES-165 (which I sorta liked), a Painter P-175 (which I liked), and a Heritage Eagle Classic (I liked this the most but I found the scale slightly too long). The thing is, I seem to be really sensitive to the neck profile of the guitars. For example, the Eastmans' necks felt really thin which turned me off of them immediately. The other 3 necks felt much better. Now, I've found a Heritage H575 in Palo Alto that seems to be just what I'm looking for. However, I'm still uneasy about buying a guitar without trying it, especially because this is a huge purchase for me and one that I won't be able to make again in the foreseeable future. Thoughts?
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08-30-2011 01:49 AM
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I certainly won't buy blindly.
Selecting the right instrument is a too serious and critical process, especially when you have great expectation.
I don't know if it helps, but my Samick JZ4 Gregg Benett has a wonderful neck and playability and new only cost around 500$..
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Living in L.A. and not being able to try a ton of archtops?
I've been there once, 25 years ago, I went to a H U G E shop where guitars were hung on the walls like hams in a Spanish pork meats shop
, and bought a nice 1950's blonde acoustic Gretsch Synchromatic for 1000$ (sold now)...
Anyway, if you buy without trying, just make sure the shop has a good return policy. You would have to pay only the shipping fees if not fully satisfied with the instrument.
Also, it's relatively easy to elaborate an idea of how a guitar sounds, and to obtain +or- reliable info about playability, neck and other specs, contrasting YouTube videos, forums threads, shops and magazine reviews, blogs....and so on...
Though, this concept is always approximate, and never equals the experience of playing an instrument in person. It's easy to notice that even two identical instruments, say, with consecutive serial numbers, sound differently one from each other...Last edited by Pierrot; 08-30-2011 at 06:16 AM.
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I buy lots of stuff without playing it, but I wouldn't recommend it for you given your situation.
I have enjoyed trying many different instruments, and I have found myself to be relatively insensitive to variances in neck carve, nut width, and so on (although obviously I have my preferences). Also I have the ability to re-sell, flip, or otherwise move an instrument that doesn't suit me.
If you are very picky AND it's a major purchase, either try in person or arrange for a return policy with the seller. Otherwise it's too chancy.
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If you technically know what you like (neck shape, nut width, radius, etc.), then you can go custom and have a great guitar (assuming you select a great luthier)! I've purchased several custom guitars without playing them, and except for one (which happened to be the least expensive one from a "new" company), they've all been wonderful.
If you (technically) don't know what you like about the guitars you've played, keep playing more, and find out the specs so you understand what "feels" right.
Good luck!
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personally i wouldn't drive a car without testdriving it
same with a guitar imo.
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I don't know man . . . I'm sure I'm wrong and others are correct . . . but, I just don't see the big deal in owning and playing a guitar that isn't exactly what I want. I guess I'm from the old (older?) school of thought. I just adapt and adjust to the guitar at hand . . . unless of course it is really outside of my ability to do so. I have bought many guitars, through the years, that weren't EXACTLY what I would choose in a guitar. I've always just played them and enjoyed them anyway.
On the other hand, I also have guitars that are exactly what I want . . . and I do enjoy those more. But, if you are at a loss to sit and try many guitars . . . just go with your instincts and buy on the blind. Worse case scenario . . . you'll learn to be comfortable with it until the guitar of your dreams comes along.
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Well, I bought a Peerless Manhattan second hand off ebay. Brilliant guitar etc etc. But I just couldn't get to grips with the neck and 17 inch body. I didn't even like the ebony fingerboard - I found it 'reflected' too much when lit! I had always played 16 inch archtops. But just didn't like the Peerless dimensions. So I sold it and bought an Ibanez 105. Also off ebay, but I had played one before. Then I bought an Ibanez AM103 BM again off ebay.
And these two Ibanez are absolutely wonderful for me. Yet neither is the equal of the Peerless in absolute terms. The AM103 by the way is probably the best guitar I have ever played; it fits me like a glove and I can't put the stupid thing down.
So I guess it took me some time to find out what is comfortable for me.
But if I was buying unseen I'd certainly always buy second hand. At least you can then sell on with limited or no losses if it's not suitable.
Phil
PS I do however have an issue with people trying guitars at a dealer and then buying them elsewhere second hand.Last edited by Philly112; 08-30-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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Since I took up playing guitar again about three years ago after a fortythree year layoff I have bought five guitars unplayed and unseen.I have sold three on but still have my Godin Artisan TC and my pride and joy,an Eastman 905.Maybe a few haven't been exactly what I really wanted but I agree with the last contributer. If you buy used generally you dont lose too much if at all.By all means if you can try them out it is the only way to go but in my circumstances that wasn't an option.
Ken
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Used, I may be tempted, but new, it definitively has to be set according to my requirements by the luthier who sells it.
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There aren't too many music stores in Palo Alto any more so I am guessing it is GRYPHON you are talking to. Having worked right near them for 15 plus years they are quite a good shop. They have an excellent repair staff and quite a good selection.
Is it worth a quick flight up the Coast to see it in person ??
Good luck, talk to those people, they are quite nice - I would feel very comfortable working with them.
Just my .02
Mike
p.s. if THIS is the instrument it is quite a nice custom example of the breed and the price is quite reasonable. They use SOLID maple on those 575 tops, a nice change from the ES175 the model was based on. Gryphon does a good job of showing you just about every angle of the instrument. It's been a long time since I was in there but I liked working with Dave, tell him BigMike (that used to bring in big bags of his biscotti) says hello from New Jersey.
http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/36786/36786.phpLast edited by BigMikeinNJ; 08-30-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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+1 on Gryphon being a terrific, and reputable shop. I've bought from them before and been very satisfied.
I'd contact them and see if you can make some arrangement regarding shipping the guitar to test it out. If that's not possible, consider BigMike's suggestion to fly up and try the guitar there.
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You win some, lose some. Best to try if possible.
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Gryphon has 2 Andersen archtops right now. They look lovely.
I'm of two minds on the issue. If a guitar is cheap--sub $1k--i just buy it to try, and resell it if i don't like it. I may lose a little bit of money but it is cheaper than flying or driving all over the place, or spending hours wondering / researching. The Samick JZ4 mentioned above is a good example: you can get them for $350, and resell if you hate it. You will have a much easier time reselling a $500 or less guitar right now. I blindly bought a Loar from Musicians Friend because they have a return policy and was blown away. I never played it before and was happy i took a chance.
OTOH, if it is an investment--$2k and above--then i would do the legwork and research and never buy something based on online opinions. Every year i go to New York and spend a 1/2 day of my trip going to Golden Age Instruments in NJ. It is always really informative and i get to play 20 guitars i could never afford to take a chance on.
It seems like you are at a point where you don't know what kind of guitar you want. You have played many different body / neck / scale types. It probably makes sense to play as many as you can to narrow down the features you want before you start buying blindly.Last edited by spiral; 08-30-2011 at 12:25 PM.
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Same for me. I too seem to be able to adapt to a rather broad variation of specs. I don't need the one and only guitar. If I can bend a guitar to my will without too much trouble, it's OK with me.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
Ideally one should always try out a guitar before buying. But you can't imagine how few archtops are for sale in Denmark, where I live. New ones belong to the lower segment of far eastern origin - with the exception of a few Gibson 175s. Used ones are more often than not in a beat up condition and not worth the money charged. Even in London - the music Mecca of Europe - there are few available, and the available samples often go for prices that can only be labelled as ripoffs. For many of us, it is not possible to travel overseas for an extended odyssee to various US dealers. So for used instruments, that leaves us with mail order from the usual suspects (Archtop.com, Elderly, Gruhn etc.).
Alternatively, one can custom order an instrument from a luthier (most are in the US, but we have a few good ones in Europe (Daniel Slaman and Stefan Sonntag just to name two of them). I have custom ordered two times from luthiers in the US and have been satisfied with both instruments. I have a third one in the build right now. But after 45 years of playing and setting up my own guitars I also know precisely which specs regarding dimensions, pickups etc. I want and I insist on them (if the luthier refuses, he won't get my order). If one orders a custom guitar, it should be - well, custom I think. Many luthiers are flexible as far as neck dimensions and pickups goes but are reluctant to deviate from the cosmetic style of their instruments, which is OK if one likes that style. One fine luthier who is extremely flexible and accomodating to customer wishes and ideosyncracies, regarding both dimensions and looks, is Jim Triggs who made me a magnificent Stromberg Master 400 copy last year. I have also put together a partscaster myself from a custom Warmoth neck and body, a Vintage Vibe pickup/pickguard assembly, and the rest from StewMac, and that is also a very nice utility instrument which plays and sounds great. It was great fun and it didn't cost a fortune.
So I'd say that it is possible to get what you want even without hands on trying, provided you know precisely what you are after and you are adaptable within reasonable limits - and the dealer is honest in his descriptions and is willing to take back an instrument which turns out to be so different from what you imagined that you can't bend it to your will (I'm not talking about warranty issues here). It will cost you shipment and insurance from and back to the dealer, but that is only fair, if the instrument is as described and not flawed.Last edited by oldane; 08-30-2011 at 12:30 PM.
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i think a lot depends on the quality control over what you are buying
but from what you say- you need to try first-i used to be senstive about necks and stuff-now i adapt very easily-necks, scale lengths, eidths etc-which is not to say there arent neck shapes i HATE,
and i think i have learned that it is better to buy something you LOVE than something you settle for in the long run
i think for an accoustic instrument it IS a much bigger deal-there are variations, in sound and feel-
BUT
i too adapt-sometimes you need to compromise a bit -but this is why you must do homework first-research research price price-read harmony central reviews-i think you will find that if there are common praise or complaints on issues of a model-there is liekly truth-this is my own experience
and a tip-jazz boxes are very difficult to sell-its a tiny market-name brands like gibson command the highest prices generally speaking-so know the market, get to know the model you wish to buy and go in a bargain -gbase will list a lot of stuff-typcially priced high-but you may also see the huge variation
i have purchased without trying 8!!
a les paul recording guitar, a lentz tele, an lp gold top historic, a jiimy page lp and and lp artist, fender p bass elite II, and an F-5 mando as well as my triggs all without playing first-notice only 2 archtop, all the others planks-notice too not the run of the mill -the archtops were accoustics-but the price was really really good -and those came from reputable sellers-but those insturments were not their main line of interest-in both case i bought from rock instrument dealers-so i was buying , possibly, from less than informed sellers,
i purchased and returned a 02 blonde byrdland-regret this a bit but the short scale didnt do it for me even if the too good to be true price did, a 03 braz gold top LP with an undisclosed gouge-regret this too in hindsight only because of the rise in value of braz LPs and i could have had the gouge repaired, and a LP recording guitar that had been modded-
i tend to like older guitars in terms of assuming that a guitar that is a few years old will likely show any wood issues by then-ie necks, tops cracking-not always but often
heres what i suggest-if you try this and can afford the costs of return and have the stomach to stand your ground (all of which can be avoided if you simply try first and look over the instrument very carefully)
that you confirm in writing that you, the buyer, have approval " in your sole discretion and judgement as to the desirability of the instrument and its suitability and condition and may return the instrument ", the terms of paying shipping (both ways) on return, no other fees-allow a 48-72 hour evaluation period if you can, pay by credit card ONLY--DO NOT agree to 'returns only is not as represented" -this means if there are pics posted, youre in an uphill fight-and there are many things that are not represented-the list below-adn sometimes you just wont feel good about the guitar, its neck, its looks, its sound etc
and
to avoid hassles up front-always confirm, all original, no repairs, straight neck, no fret or nut issues, all electronics original and working, no scratchy pots, original (or whatever) case, original finish, dings gouges etc-this will first alert you to issues that you simply dont want, and also creates a affirmative statement representation by the seller as to the insturments conditoin and as to certain objecive condition points-a bighelp should you need to argue-you may already have something to show it wasnt as represented if you do this
if you can-get pics of any 'issues' -this too can avoid hassles-and size up the seller-the more he needs to sell , the smaller etc- he becomes invested in that sale-its his rent etc-as opposed to a larger business -just my opinion-and not always the case- but bear this in mind-returns at GC are easy-the guy taking in the guitar will still get paid, its not his inventory, etc-not so much with a mom and pop-youll need to justify yourself and convince them too-i LIKE being able to buy a guitar, sleep on it, and if i wake up saying 'what have i done'-knowing im not f(*&ed-sometimes things seem important etc and then theyre given new perspective-i have only had buyers remorse with a gorgeous blone byrdland id wanted all my life, until i played it for about three days- i like this option-but never buy with the idea of not keeping
i also always talk to the seller on the phone to establish a rapport and to just get a feel and if i can do a quick due diligence on line about his reputation
i also bear in mind that a deal that is too good, probably is-know the market price first, and if its way off, you may be in for an issue
credit card gives you a good deal of safety, provided you do the pre-conditoinal documentation i mention
someimtes you have to do things this way for harder to come by items, and you need to understand that you could get burned-but imho that is less likely if you do a bit of homework first
the best thing though is that if youre green, find a reputable dealer that wants to make you happy-the bottom line is it will cost you about 200 round trip shipping, if you have a guitar shipped and reject it
and dont ask me why, but i tend to get 2nd day or even overnight shipping on higher end stuff-i think, but only that, that its less likely to encounter issues on the way, handling, temperature, warehousing and hot trucks etc-
always too, agree on insurace coverage-seller insures to you, you insure back to seller-and read the fine print too-often you may need to box in a box to have coverage
tell the seller to loosen the strings, and gently remove the bridge without scratchign the top and protect the top-some paper between the top and the strings- and put the bridge in bubble wrap in the accessory compartment too-for an archtop -there are some really big stores that dont have very experienced folks-
even top jazz boxes are often hard to sell-very limited market compared to other guitars-so research and bargain !Last edited by stevedenver; 09-19-2011 at 07:27 PM.
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Trying first is always best, but sometimes that's not in the cards...
Always work with reputable dealers and make sure they have a good return policy...sometimes you have to jump through a few hoops to find your guitar.
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I have done it a couple of times, and always been happy with the guitar.
However, I have been interested in ordering guitars, and then when I got around to actually testing them later, been REALLY glad I didn't order them... :-)
If you order a handbuilt from a luthier, you obviously won't be able to test it first, so sometimes you just need to trust you're getting a good quality guitar.
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+1 on this. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Happa is interested in a Heritage 575 and they are very hard to find out here. Originally Posted by Pierrot
Living in L.A. and not being able to try a ton of archtops?
I've been there once, 25 years ago, I went to a H U G E shop where guitars were hung on the walls like hams in a Spanish pork meats shop, and bought a nice 1950's blonde acoustic Gretsch Synchromatic for 1000$ (sold now)...
If you're looking to spend 4K and up on vintage archtops than L.A. has a decent market. If however you are interested in trying out new archtops from builders like Heritage, Benedetto, Sadowsky, Hofner etc. you're pretty much out of luck.
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That 575 looks like it has a pretty nice neck. The 575 I used to own had a nice full neck carve. It was great! Originally Posted by happa95
I've owned 5 Heritage guitars to date and all of them have been fantastic sounding instruments so tone shouldn't be an issue. Ask the dealer about the neck carve and make sure there are no issues with the guitar.
As long as they have a return policy, you will be fine imo. If they won't allow you to return the guitar if you are not fully satisfied than do not buy it!
Good luck!
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Really? Oh, I see... Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
Hard to figure out from this side of the Atlantic ocean. The US appear like a colossal warehouse of guitars, builders, retailers...and it's somewhat difficult to draw an accurate map of what and where.
Here (A Coruna, Northwest of Spain) I have to move 70 Km (Santiago) to find a shop with a (decent?) choice of archtops. I was there two days ago (bought a ZT Club12) and their stock was: 1 Gibson ES 350, 2 L4, 1 ES175, 1 ES359, 2 ES335, 1 Fender D'Aquisto, 1 D'Angelico New Yorker (new, of course), 1 D'Aquisto JazzLine, 1 Heritage Kenny Burrell...some Ibanez, several Epis...and that's all. No L5, no Eastmans, no vintage anything, no small luthier's creations...
If I want to find something else, then, it has to be Madrid (600 Km) or Barcelona (1200 Km). Though, when I went to the States, (I've been travelling from N.Y. to L.A.), I could see that even smaller shops had a much larger selection of -sometimes very-interesting instruments. At least it's my remembrance...
Anyway, good luck to Happa in his quest. (and sorry for the digression out of the thread).
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It is, sort of, but not for archtops. There are plenty of Guitar Center stores (big-ass music store chain) but they are full of plenty of shredding guitars and Les Paul variants, but not many nice archtops. If you like Ibanez, Fender or Gibson/Epiphone, you are covered. Originally Posted by Pierrot
I don't want to whine about it too much (yes i do) but even in Chicago there isn't a great store for nice guitars. There is 1, but they sell mostly vintage Gibsons & Epiphones which are priced accordingly. I'd have to go to Golden Age in New Jersey (you know, 14 hours away) or Gruhn (8 hours away) to play more than 2 really fine instruments. Jeff Hale is great, but that is 2 hours away. It's a niche market so i'm thankful there are even specialized dealers.
The US is very big, and very spread out. Just like anywhere else, it is filled with lots of garbage. There are some gems but most aren't just a car ride away.
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I will tell you this, not as a Heritage rep . . but as a guitar collector and enthusiast. That is one fine 575 you're looking at! The wood package is fantastic and you will NOT often find a single pup 575. If I were in the market, I would negotiate a better price and pull the trigger immediately. But, that's just me. I do NOT have a need for a bridge pup on an arch top intended for jazz. You need to make sure you won't need, or want the bridge pup before you buy that beauty. Ask a lot of questions about the guitar. Then, ask for a written quote confirming a 24 hour right of refusal . . . . then, trust your instinces. Originally Posted by happa95
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I buy a lot of things without any test before.
Just because I don't have Music shop in my area with a lot of choice
I don't like to test a guitar in a shop. I prefer to test it at home, with my amplifier , cable , etc... Just a question of personal feelings.
I order from internet, with a 30 days garantee in case I don't appreciate.
And before to buy, I read a lot from different sources.
I have bought with this Method my Ibanez AF-125 + Roland cube 30XL , so as my VHT special 6 Head , my lime 6 M9, ...
I never had bad surprise.
But I have to say that I won't buy a very expensive Guitar so without trying it.Last edited by manu68; 09-08-2011 at 04:48 AM.
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