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What is the loudest archtop guitar anyone here has encountered? Loud can be a little subjective, so I am referring to a balance of full tone with lots of projection. From my experience, some guitars can project very well, but be directional, thus not very full. Or the opposite, full but muffled presence in a large room.
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05-31-2011 10:01 PM
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I picked up my custom built 18" Unity American Eagle arch top from Aaron Cowles a few months ago. It has a floating Kent Armstrong pup with a tap tuned top and back. Aaron is a luthier from Vicksburg MI. He worked with Gibson for some 20 years back in the '60s, '70s and '80s. Didn't want to make the transition to Heritage as an employee when Gibson split for Nashville. Started his own company. He has built me a 17" and now an 18". The 18" has the biggest, fullest and most defined voice of any arch top I have ever played . .. . and I've played quite a few. www.aaronsmusicservice.com
Originally Posted by histind
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I was at Gruhn Guitars looking to try a few instruments when Gruhn pulled out a 1941 Stromberg DeLuxe from his office. It felt good in my hands but when I played it, it was the loudest, best sounding instrument I've played. Nothing I've played since can matchit.
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That would definately be my '49 Stromberg, they were built for volume in the pre pickup era.... although I have an Epiphone that come pretty close. Nothing muffled here.... ;-)
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PS Strombergs are especially rare and expensive so probably not an option. If you are in the market for a very loud fully acoustic archtop I would first and foremost suggest to look into a pre 53 Epiphone Triumph, or for a little more $$$ a Broadway. Epiphones differ considerably from one instrument to another. As a very general rule of thumb, the ones with narrower grain are nicely balanced, whereas the ones with wider grain are louder (wider grain --> top had to be cut a bit thicker in the middle --> more chunk). You have to try out in person because they all are different. But I have owned / played many that were exceptional 'cannons' with volume and projection you will never hear in any modern archtop. Modern archtops are usually carved with thinner tops and x-braced for sweeter tone. If you need volume you use the pickup ! If your quest is a really loud acoustic archtop, youd better look vintage. The Epi Triumphs are comparable in sound quality to a Gibson L7, the Broadway is sort of a L12. But usually you can find them at much better price than Gibsons. And as said they can be real loud if you have the right one. See for instance this one: 1954 Epiphone Broadway . Although this particular dealer can be a bit too eloquent at times, his description seems to match my experience, and your question closely "This example has an exceptionally powerful voice, with extraordinary clarity, balance and projection. An exceptional example of one of Epiphone's most popular guitars: truly a cannon with strings". There are plenty of Epi's coming by on ebay if you have some time you can find a real gem I am sure of it.
Last edited by fws6; 06-01-2011 at 02:10 AM.
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if you are looking for a archtop to do freddie G on a budget, you couldnt go wrong with an 50s Epi. look into triumphs or broadways (usually about $2500) and i have never played a dud. a DeLuxe (i have a 40') and the ultimate, emperors are that much better. but emperors go for around 6-8. but for how much guitar you are getting, if it said gibson on it, it would be 15-20G easy.
emperors are like cannons. people in the know call them the "super400 slayer"...no jokeLast edited by mattymel; 06-01-2011 at 02:16 AM.
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confining ourselves to current production guitars for a moment:
the 17" wide by 3" deep Benedettos are known for projection. other custom luthiers may go for the same thing. these are "acoustic" archtops with floating pickups. they should sound good unplugged.
Gibson carved tops seem a bit quieter. they may be carved thicker, i'm not sure. they also seem a bit heaver. people say that they are probably a little less prone to feedback, relative to a Benedetto.
however, much like those big guitars already posted, a Super 400 should be fairly loud. the question is, do you want to lug around a beast like that full time?
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I have a Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith Award. It's 17" X 3" deep. Pretty much made similarly to a Benedetto arch top . . . and most importantly uses the same Engleman spruce and German maple. The sound and tone is amazingly beautiful. But, I wouldn't say that it projects very loud. Probably even a little softer and more mellow that my other arch tops with a floating pup. But, warm and wonderful!!! Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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Of course there's is variation from guitar to guitar of the same model. But...
My Epi's have all, just like the stereotype, had that great attack and cutting upper mids. IMO you can't go wrong with an old Triumph or Deluxe.
But my '46 L-5 has never been out shouted at a jam session either! If you're not cutting through the mix with a guitar like mine, then you just aren't hitting it hard enough. It has huge dynamic range and it begs to be used.
In my experience with Benedettos (never owned one, played many) they can be sweet, but they don't have the punch of the old Gibsons and Epis. And that is just what I expect from a modern x-braced archtop.
And boy oh boy, sure wish I could play that Stromberg!
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i have a different experience with this for sure. mine is certainly louder than my 17 x 3 gibson. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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My Guild Benedetto JS is definitely louder than my 17" X 3" Gibson too. But, that Gibsom is an L5CES. The Guild Benedetto is an X braced tap tuned acoustic archtop with a floating pup. I don't have a 17" X 3" acoustic arch top Gibson to compare it to. I can only define the tone that comes from this wonderful Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith as "sweet" and totally unique from any of my other arch tops. I love its tone so much, that on the rare occasions when I do plug it in, I keep the amp volume low enough so I can still hear the acoutic properties of the guitar as they blend with the warmth of the tube amp. "Double sweet". Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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I assumed we were all talking fully acoustic archtops here. Of course instruments with a set-in pickup are always quieter acoustically as these are braced more heavily
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I have a Benedetto Fratello from 1997 - x-braced, the top is tight grained and fairly thin. It sounds great when played at moderate volumes, and it's great for fingerpicking. But to my ears it doesn't like to be pushed with thick strings, high action and vigorous picking - it becomes harsh and metallic. 12-52 is good, but already 13-56 seems to dampen the response of the top a bit. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
My Jim Triggs "hommage" to a Stromberg Master 400 is much better as a rhythm guitar with it's thicker and more wide grained and parallel braced top, which calls for harder playing, where it really delivers. It takes thick strings well. On the other hand, it doesn't come to it's own when only played soft. It is not a fingerpickers guitar.
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Isn't the Fratello a laminate top? Or am I confusing it with a different model Benedetto? Originally Posted by oldane
Last edited by Patrick2; 06-03-2011 at 09:56 AM.
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It's carved: http://benedettoguitars.com/guitars/...ello%E2%84%A2/ Originally Posted by Patrick2
At 20 grand it better be!
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Thanks . . . I was definitely confusing it with one of the less expensive models. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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Here's the biggest problem with archtops. The luthier builds a particular sound into an archtop depending on the function the player puts the guitar through. For example, Strombergs, especially the biggest ones were generally built for power. D'Angelicos were built more for chord melody style and were a bit less projecting. HOWEVER, if a player went to John D and asked for a power house, he got it and I'm sure there are quieter, sweeter Strombergs out there. Like Frank says, you really can't generalize too much. If you're doing vintage, you need to check each axe out to see what it does. You go from there.
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I'm coming from a classical guitar background, so volume with a full sound has always been one of the most important characteristics of an instrument for me. For instance, one of the most highly sought after (if not THE most) classical guitars is a Greg Smallman. This instrument is carbon fiber lattice-braced with a razor thin top, giving it unbelievable projection and volume. Nowadays, there are a lot of builders that use this construction method. So, I suppose what I'm really looking for is the "Smallman" of archtop guitars. Originally Posted by fws6
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Here's a thought that's pretty unique to me . . . and some my find my logic to be a bit .. . . stupid??? But, the tone of an arch top factors in to my decision as only an equal part of the vibe necessary for me to want that particular guitar. If I found an arch top that just jumped out and spoke to me. . in terms of "vibe", but it had a less than stellar voice . . . I'd probably use the "less than stellar voice" aspect of the guitar as a negotiating chip and buy the guitar anyway. More often than not, if an arch top sounds bad, it due to some correctable defect. I have heard absolutely DEAD arch tops . . . then detected loose kerfing by knuckle tapping the outer edge of the top and back. Twice, I bought such arch tops. One was a 1968 L5C. I negotiated a great price . . . took the guitar to Ronaldo up at Pastore Music in Union City NJ. He did the necessary repair and the guitar just sang to me. I have not come across too many bad sounding high end arch tops. While they each differ from each other in tonal characteristics, almost all of them sound really good and in most cases great. Originally Posted by hot ford coupe
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I wonder how many guitarists play archtops in a fashion where they need max acoustic volume. You're no longer playing a classical guitar. Make a clean break and get used to an ES-175-style archtop. You might like it!
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Never!!! ...j/k. Actually, I do own one. I'm not opposed to it, I was just curious. I like to play "fingerstyle" as it is called in these parts, and I'd love to be able to perform without an amp. I think for classical guys it's a point of pride to not use amplification, kind of like saying, "Hey, I play a real instrument too!" Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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And here I thought it was only me that thought that way. You're definitely right and there are articles out there that support your theory very well. Even Gruhn talks about a poorly set up high end guitar that sounds like crap only to be fixed and sound beautiful. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Just like yourself, to me, the vibe is half the purchase. It's got to really draw me to it if I'm going to play it. It may be a great sounding instrument but if it doesn't satisfy my aesthetic sense, I won't want to pick it up.
I remember when I bought my D'A at Gruhn's. I had the choice of 2 instruments. One was the 39 Excel which I bought and the other was a blond 47 Excel. I remember the 47 having lousy, tarnished strings and some unknown non descript pickup. The brass needed a bit of cleaning but that's nothing. The 39 actually had a better sound but it had been correctly set up with nice strings, etc. I would really have wanted the 47 because of all the inlays and stair step tailpiece but unfortunately, the guitar was $1000 semolians more than my resources so I bought the other one. I'm sure if I had the 47, did a good setup, put on a good set of strings and replaced the pickup with my DeArmond Rhythm Chief which I did put on the 39, that guitar would have been outstanding. Unfortunately, the economics made the decision for me but I've never been unhappy with my choice. It's the only axe I play.
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that clarifies the question a lot...where are you located....and how much do you approximately want to spend ?I'm coming from a classical guitar background, so volume with a full sound has always been one of the most important characteristics of an instrument for me. For instance, one of the most highly sought after (if not THE most) classical guitars is a Greg Smallman. This instrument is carbon fiber lattice-braced with a razor thin top, giving it unbelievable projection and volume. Nowadays, there are a lot of builders that use this construction method. So, I suppose what I'm really looking for is the "Smallman" of archtop guitars.
I am guessing from the guitar you describe (carbon fibre) you're not really a vintage guy right...perhaps check out the Ribbecke halfling which is part archtop and part flattop with an oval soundhole... It is often described as being very loud
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On a Smallman only the interior bracing is made from carbon fiber. I'm not ready to buy just yet, I'm only making a short list of guitars to try. The Halfling was already near the top of that list
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Great thread guys. I love all the experience and knowledge of folks who REALLY PLAY archtops.
As mentioned in the OP, loudness is subjective. In a big band you'd want the fast attack, cutting kind of power. For solo chord melody, you'd want that "blooming" volume, you know where the attack is not so dramatic, but the volume seems to build for a moment and then sustain. One guy might call the first loud, and another might call the second loud, depending on the style they play.
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