1934 Gibson L4

**Silly Moustache** · 03-07-2011, 12:25 PM

Hi Limey Andy here.

So, my yearning was for a really early L-5, but my budget was way too low. I got an Eastman - tidy but un-inspring, got a "The Loar" but they all seem to have finsih and /or neck angle problems. - so I went crazy and ordered a 16" 1934 L-4 wih F-holes - acoustic uncut from Archtop.com.

It's arrived and in pretty good condition with very VERY low action, old (original?) r/w bridge (which isn't actually a perfect fit) and hardly any meat on the frets.

It has a sweet tone but doesn't have much volume. It seems very "stiff".

It has D'addario EJ17s on which suits me as those are what I use on my flat-tops. (the Gibson is intended for acoustic western swing work).

I have raised the action to something approaching my preference which has improved the volume a little, and it is undergoing the initial "tonerite" treatment.

Question is - would a replacement ebony bridge and/or a refret improve the volume ?

Any other suggestions? All comments welcomed.
Thanks in advance,
Ol' Andy

**spiral** · 03-07-2011, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Question is - would a replacement ebony bridge and/or a refret improve the volume ?

Not appreciably. What strings do you have on it? Heavy strings and hard playing are going to get you volume.

**fws6** · 03-07-2011, 01:20 PM

I dont know what you mean by 'stiff'. It is hard to talk about tone in words, but I usually use the term 'stiff' for guitars that havent been played in yet. Since your guitar is an antique and described as having a sweet tone I am not quite sure, to me that would be quite the opposite of 'stiff'...

Anyways, volume is a different matter. I have some very loud acoustic archtops in my collection (Epiphone...Stromberg...) and to me it appears that very well-balanced guitars are usually not very loud; whereas true rythm cannons usually havent got that delicate balance. Either tonal character has its merits ; but you cannot have both in one guitar.

If you find the frets too low then by al means have it refretted, but it wont help the volume.

Ebony vs rosewood bridge gives a bit difference in tone but real volume difference is questionable

Raising the action, heavier strings, thick picks, and heavy attack, all help to get more volume but also require you to change your playing style.

If you like the sound guitar; the best aproach is just install a nice floating PU and amp a little ?

If you cannot get along with it in the first place, then it's a pity but you better start looking for another. Because you wont turn a quiet instrument into a cannon no matter what.

**Silly Moustache** · 03-07-2011, 02:01 PM

Hi Spiral,
I think I mentioned strings in there somewhere - I believe them to be D'add Ej-17s which is what I keep a stock of for my flat tops. I feel that 13-56 is a reasonable weight for an archtop - but not sure about whether P/B or Nickels would work best.

Andy

**fws6** · 03-07-2011, 02:15 PM

Those are fine. You wont get much more volume out of a string change then.

**Silly Moustache** · 03-07-2011, 02:18 PM

Hi FWS6,

Maybe "tight" isn't the right word. Shall we say "reserved". I get the impression that the guitar hasn't been played much - certainly very little sign of wear on the back of the neck or the fretboard. - Frets have been carefully dressed and so unable to say from that.

Maybe it has simply gone to sleep.
My question was because a friend once remarked about a flat-top that new higher frets would increase the volume.

The Gibson is currently quieter than the "The Loar" (loud but unsubtle) and my Eastman (pretty nice tone, but too much treble.

I've been admiring your website. Love that "Howard"

Incidentally, I see you are in the EU , and I've been searching for a German case manufacturer who seems to have disappeared - this guitar deserves a better case than the OHSC - which is looking rather sad. Do you know of any Archtop guitar case suppliers ?

Best,

Andy

**Eddie Lang** · 03-07-2011, 06:18 PM

Congrats on the new guitar. I hope you will make friends with it. It's a nice catch. I was looking at it myself. I have a round hole 1934 L-4 (archtop) and I thought this one might go well with it. In the end, I didn't contact Joe about it because now is not a good time for me to get another guitar.

Experiment with different strings, you might find the ones that are the good match for you and the guitar. Because you like a certain set of strings on a guitar, flat top or other, does not mean that they will be the best ones for this guitar for you.

When I got my L-4 (from archtop.com BTW), it was nice with the strings it came with, but they weren't what I wanted. I put on TI Swing .013 flats and they have been the perfect match for me for three or four years. Now, they may not be what I want anymore and I am thinking of moving on a bit and I will try the TI Plectrum on it next. The Plectrums are what I like on my flat top, but who knows, they may not work for me on the L-4. If so, I'll just try something else. Strings can change a guitar's character a lot and they are a relatively cheap experiment (and same with different picks).

**Silly Moustache** · 03-07-2011, 08:13 PM

Hi Eddie (Eddie Lang?)

Thanks for your kind thoughts. I've been looking through Archtop.com's archives today and they've had a '35 and a '36 similar to mine. I'd like a round hole L-4 as it reminds me of the 1915 L-2 13 fret that I once had. Had to sell it to pay the one month's mortgage - about forty years ago, and still miss it.

I really like the look and feel of the '34, L-4 - it must have been one of the first F hole versions.
I just need to coax some volume out of it. I now have to sell two or three other archtops to pay for it !

Yes - I will experiment with strings.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Ol' Andy (btw - give my best to Joe Venuti doing?)

**pingu** · 03-07-2011, 08:34 PM

I just had a 60's Hofner President refretted cos
there wasn't much meat left on em
I went for jumbo frets and raised the action a bit
It is way louder now .... because you can really dig in
and still get a nice clean sound ............

ie its

**Eddie Lang** · 03-07-2011, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi Eddie (Eddie Lang?)

btw - give my best to Joe Venuti doing?

Joe is fine and he says hello.

(I know, I should have chosen eddie-lang-fan or something like that)

Cheers,

R.

**kamlapati** · 03-07-2011, 09:01 PM

When I got my '46 L-5 it sounded somewhat muffled. First thing I noticed was that the felt pad under the pickguard washing pushing down on the top because the pickguard had warped. A new pickguard plus 90 days of playing and it felt like a whole new guitar.

I'd say inspect the guitar for obvious and subtle problems, frets included, spend the money to get it right, then play it.

**spiral** · 03-07-2011, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi Spiral,
I think I mentioned strings in there somewhere - I believe them to be D'add Ej-17s which is what I keep a stock of for my flat tops. I feel that 13-56 is a reasonable weight for an archtop - but not sure about whether P/B or Nickels would work best.

You mentioned the strings but not the gauge. 13's are good. Nickels are in general going to give you less tension and a slightly thinner sound. Eddie lang is right on: experimenting with strings is key. Different tensions and materials play a big role in the sound. Sometimes heavier isn't better either, depending on the voice. Sometime flatwounds help tame something with a brittle high end.

What FWS6 says about "playing in" your guitar is something i believe as well. I never owned a nice carved guitar until recently but noticed a breaking in period. The sound started to open up after a few months of playing. This was a bigger deal on newer guitars, not ones that were 50+ years old.

The other thing to consider is: you just may not like the guitar. This is a very hard lesson i have had to learn after spending big money on guitars that on paper seemed like they should be awesome. Chicago Music Exchange is right by an office that i did work at, and got to play almost all their vintage Epiphone and Gibson archtops over a long period of time. Even the same models (different years) sounded wildly different. There is a beat up L12 (on their site now; has a big crack in it) that played and sounded better than many of the fancy-pants L5's and Super 400's on the wall.

I guess i'm saying, if you don't like it now, you may not like it in the future, and string changes, refrets, and bridge swaps are not likely to get you much closer. But! If you have 30 days to think, a string swap is your best chance for big change, buy some different types, try them out, and be honest with yourself if this guitar is the one you want.

**Jabberwocky** · 03-08-2011, 05:54 AM

My tuppence worth: try a new bridge and saddle. The current bridge may not be well-fitted to the top of the L4. How about one by John Moriarty in Ireland? I'd try different strings, a new bridge and saddle first.

Re-fretting an old instrument like this may affect its resale value if you still do not like it after the re-fret and wish to sell it on. I won't re-fret it unless I mean to keep it or won't mind the hit in resale value. This is only a decision that you can make.

The only other thing is perhaps a mismatch between your expectations and this L4's inherent character.

**Silly Moustache** · 03-08-2011, 07:54 AM

Hi Jabberwocky and Spiral,

The guitar has the right config for me - I really wanted a 16" body and a wider neck V shaped neck, and this guitar gives those aspects to me.

The cosmetic condition is damned good for its age, (I've got more scars and dings that it has and I'm a '48 model!) It has only the sunburst top as one would expect in a non L-5 body, but it looks completed.

I guess it is a matter of managing expectations - I had hoped or a large, open sound, - at least as loud as the Chinese Loar copy, and even more sophisticated than my Eastman. It doesn't give me that.

I'm also disappointed in the case - and blame myself for not asking for a new fitted case when I bought it. It seems impossible to get a case for Archtops in the UK !

However, I'm not yet prepared to give up on it. Return is not viable even if they'd take it back, and I agree that usage and maybe a re-fret might help it.

I'm puzzled by the suggestion that a re-fret would reduce its value - surely all guitars need re-frets from time to time ? I would seek advice about period correct frets though. Would Gibson Jumbos be entirely wrong for this period ?

I'm intrigued about the Moriarty bridges - thanks for the tip. Are they really considerably superior to the standard stuff you can buy?

As I might have said - I'm giving it a thorough Tonerite treatment, and I do "suspect" a certain improvement.

Then I'll put another set of EJ-17s on it (cos I have them) ...I also have Gibson L-5 nickels - but didn't someone say they would sound thinner ?

I seem to follow a pattern - I buy a guitar, then spend a load on getting it set up before I consider it "mine" - I'm probably following that pattern.

Anyway thanks for all the input.

Ol' Andy

**fws6** · 03-08-2011, 08:34 AM

@ pingu >I went for jumbo frets and raised the action a bit It is way louder now .... because you can really dig in

Sure, from that perspective you are right. I meant the frets by themselves have little to do with volume. But if higher frets result in higher action and harder strumming then of course that is exactly as what I said.

@ spiral > The other thing to consider is: you just may not like the guitar.

I also got that idea. You seem to defend your purchase, maybe because you spend all that cash on it, and trying to convince yourself that you can grow into it. But the overall sentiment plainly is that you are pretty much disappointed in the guitar overall. A different setup etc might help changing it a bit, but it wont make for a completely different instrument. And from what you describe you were after loud and punchy rather than quiet and balanced. Face up; Sometimes an instrument may be perfect, but just not the one you were after.

Archtop.com is rather expensive but in my experience have very good customer service. If you describe to Joe what your problem is; I am sure he will take back the instrument as long as it is in trade for something else in his inventory. (for instance those Epi Triumph's he has are known for, and also described as, having exceptional volume. I dig mine so much it was the start of getting all the others....)

And sorry, I dont know of any case manufacturers.

**Silly Moustache** · 03-08-2011, 09:33 AM

Hi, I'm feeling a little better today (had a filthy cold since Friday), and the Tonerite has been on the guitar since Friday night apart from a few little try-outs. My wife is going out shortly and so I can give it a good bashing.
The trouble is really my expectations. I paid about as much as I'd pay for a New Collings (which I have) and they are so outstanding that I guess I thought the Gibson was going to be as strident at least, as my cheaper archtops.
To associate price with quality is a foolish notion and my problem.

The guitar IS what I wanted - an L-4, or L-7 or maybe an L-12 - (still not sure where the differences lie) with a 16" body and with the raised fretboard (what DO you call that?) and it has the wider neck - which I need and is why I rejected Epiphones which all seem to have skinny necks - I have tried a couple.

I nearly sent back the Loar, but as it is loud, (and needs a decent set up) I can use that for gigs, until it falls apart, and slowly work on the Gibson whilst I learn the proper way to use a guitar like this - I'm a bluegrass style flatpicker who really wants to understand Freddie Green / Ranger Doug style, and do a few party pieces on old standards.

To return it, I will lose the considerable amount paid in duty and taxes, plus the ridiculous shipping prices charged in the UK. I can't contemplate that yet.

Maybe Gibson acoustics aren't that loud - certainly their flat-tops don't compete with Martins, Collings etc.,
Maybe I'll have to learn to play differently - it's all about learning.

Don't understand why a refret would reduce the value ???

Best
Andy

**Bill C** · 03-08-2011, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

To return it, I will lose the considerable amount paid in duty and taxes, plus the ridiculous shipping prices charged in the UK. I can't contemplate that yet.

I think you might be able to reclaim the duty and tax, but of course not the two way transatlantic shipping, which is a major cost.

The old Gibson archtops I've played seem to generally have very limited sustain compared with more modern archtops or flattop guitars. In many ways this is a desirable thing if you like the traditional bebop sound.

A couple of suggestions:

You might consider stringing it up with Newtone Archtop strings. They are nice and bright and very good quality imo and, as you are in the UK, they are "locally sourced"

You could raise the action a little to get some more punch. In my experience there's a point at which the action is low enough that it's still comfortable, but high enough that the strings really respond to playing dynamics.

**Eddie Lang** · 03-08-2011, 10:00 AM

SM, you mentioned that the bridge is not well fitted to the top. I am surprised that Joe V. Let it go that way, but anything can happen.

It seems to me that volume is your main complain with the guitar. A poorly fitted bridge will affect volume.

First, make sure that it is placed correctly for good intonation. Rising or lowering the bridge will require nudging the bridge a little in order to maintain good intonation. Once you are sure about height, intonation and placement, check if the base is fits perfectly. If not, it is fairly easy to do it yourself with sandpaper on the top of the guitar facing towards the bridge or bring it to a luthier if you prefer not to do it yourself. That should improve volume.

**fws6** · 03-08-2011, 11:17 AM

@ > Epiphones which all seem to have skinny necks ??????

Someone else here on the board was arguing the same thing. To me this seems a totally awkward remark. I have quite a few epi's and never ever ever had one with a skinny neck. A guitar with a skinny neck to me is synonymous with a Gibson from the mid-60s. And Epiphones are quite the opposite. All Epi's have the longer 25,5" scale length, and on mine I measured the following nut widths:

40 Emperor 1-3/4"
41 Soloist 1-23/32"
46 Emperor 1-23/32"
51 Deluxe 1-3/4"
51 Broadway 1-11/16"
53 Deluxe 1-23/32"
53 Triumph 1-11/16"

So for me 1-11/16 is actually the smallest.... most are bigger. I looked on archtop.com just now of the 11 NY Epiphones he has there are 10 with the wider nut. The only small one is a 1967 example; so Gibson-made !!!

**Jabberwocky** · 03-08-2011, 11:53 AM

Andy, it is not so much the re-fret per se that affects value; it is who does it and how it is done. If you have a reputable luthier do it and with the "correct" period frets, it may actually help the value.

Some collectors are fanatical about originality. I am not talking about players, of course. If you are going to re-fret it, take it to someone with a reputation of doing a great job, someone who builds archtops for a living and has history backing him up. If you take it to the local tech down the street, questions are going to be asked about the quality of work done and that will adversely affect resale value.

Players don't care about such things. But players don't want to pay a lot for such things anyway. So........

**kamlapati** · 03-09-2011, 09:53 PM

Hey Silly, dumb me just realized you got the one on archtop.com, duh.

Man, I really wish we lived closer so we could have a night of sharing archtops! I would love to hear and feel that guitar.

I'll be repetitive and redundant! Take the time, try different strings (especially phosphor bronze, 80/20, 85/15, lights and mediums), fix the details (bridge fit, frets, etc.) and play it. The fact that it is old does not mean it is already "played in." These guys need real love, attention, and time to bring out their best. And like you say, you may modify your style to bring out its best.

Congratulations, good luck, and keep us posted.

**Silly Moustache** · 03-12-2011, 02:25 PM

Hi folks, In thought I'd gve you an update on the L-4. I've had it for a week now and it is really starting to wake up.

I took it to my club and was told that wit has great carrying power. I've raised the action to my comfort area. and really starting to enjoy it.

Still wondering about refretting it, but my preferred luthier is very busy right now.

Also been trying to find a good (better) case for it alght the original one still woirks - it is a little tired. Just can;t find cases suitable for archtops in the UK ! A frind told me last night that he thought the old case was as important to the vibe of the guitar as the guitar !!!??

BTW - There is a guy in Germany who is selling a '34 L-7, on e-bay and to me it looks identical to my L-4 but isn;lt in such good condition. ????

Anyway, thanks for the help and advice,

Ol' Andy

**Eddie Lang** · 03-12-2011, 02:38 PM

About projection, having someone play the guitar 6 feet in front of you will give you a good idea.

About the case, I have an Eastman for my L-4. They are no Calton and I wouldn't fly with them (I wouldn't fly with anything but a Calton), but they do the job. I am told their weakness is the latches, but I have had mine for three or four years and it wasn't new when I got it, and it is still good.

**fws6** · 03-12-2011, 02:57 PM

> There is a guy in Germany who is selling a '34 L-7,

This guy has loads of stuff but if he actually ever sells anything I seriously doubt... he's asking $7000 which seems about double of what it is worth

The guitar is definately an L7 though

Looks a lot like yours but if yours is an L4 it probably also has an inlay at the first fret ?

**Eddie Lang** · 03-12-2011, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by fws6

Looks a lot like yours but if yours is an L4 it probably also has an inlay at the first fret ?

Fingerboard inlays at 1st fret started in 1935 on L-4's. Then again, the ƒ-hole L-4 also "officially" started in 1935. But hey, they had to start somewhere, he?

For what it's worth, my 1934 round hole L-4 has fingerboard inlays (dots) at 3, 5, 7, 9, 12 (double dots) and 15.