ES-330 style: Epiphone vs Peerless

[Nearhigh]

Hi,

I'm on the market for something to complement my Strat and I'm leaning toward a 330-style guitar. How would you rank the Peerless Songbird and Revolver models next to the three current Epi Casinos (the Standard, "Inspired by JL" and the Elitist) in terms of quality?

[NSJ]

Just to be clear, a "330" is actually a thin line hollow body , while a "335" has the center block and is thus, a semi-hollow. I presume you meant a " 335" guitar.

[jazzbow]

Just for your information the korean epi 330 was made by peerless, buy a new peerless songbird, money well spent or get a copy of the blue book (available on www.jedistar.com) and learn the korean codes for epiphones and go shopping. Ebay traders are getting smart on this so you'll pay a premium for the korean epi's. The elites are big bucks, peerless is the best bet

[mr. beaumont]

Nav, the casinos are hollow, like a 330.

[NSJ]

Nav, the casinos are hollow, like a 330.

Opps. . I'm so used to the "335 type" of guitar lexicon. Thanks for the clear up. Reminds me, then, that at the other price range, the new Sadowsky SS-15 is a thin line hollow body that has gotten excellent reviews.

[ES125er]

Opps. . I'm so used to the "335 type" of guitar lexicon. Thanks for the clear up. Reminds me, then, that at the other price range, the new Sadowsky SS-15 is a thin line hollow body that has gotten excellent reviews.

Has there ever been a thread on this forum without a Sadowsky recommendation?

[Nearhigh]

Thanks for all the replies. I do really mean 330, not 335. The reason I posed the question is that I have the option of buying a) a new Peerless locally for €800-ish plus case or b) a new (=Chinese) Epiphone "Inspired by" model sight unseen off the net for €700-ish including case. If they're made equal, I can pay some extra for the one not manufactured in the PRC, but are they?

[Little Jay]

In my experience, Korean made guitars are still considerably better then Chinese made guitars. I don't know how accurate my information is, but I thought that the Peerless factory produced guitars for Epiphone and then Epiphone had them made in China and Indonesia, so the Peerless factory started building guitars under other names.

Notably the f-holes on Chinese and Indonesian guitars are routed quite a bit larger, which I find very uggly (that's just looks though). But the Chinese-made Epiphone ES-175 that I tried some months ago, was put together fine and played very comfortable.

Allthough I am sometimes quite amazed over the quality of Chines guitars, in the case of a 330-clone I would opt for Peerless if I were in your shoes (is that an expression in English too? :-)

[JazzyJim]

My Peerless Songbird plays, feels and sounds better than any standard production Casino's i've ever played - and that includes older ones made in the Peerless factory. I have no idea why, although the neck profile is slightly bigger than the normally very slim Epiphone's, which may have something to do with the playability for me. The fit and finish on my Songbird is near-flawless. If I was nitpicking, the interior around the f holes was a little rough, but I only noticed when I was thoroughly checking it out.

They're not quite as well put together as the Elitist models, but at that level of quality, you're ultimately splitting hairs.

Where is your location? 800Eur seems quite high to me. I got mine for under £400GBP including a (very nice) case.

[newsense]

I posed a similar question (Peerless or Epi ?) on this forum a couple of weeks ago - the overwhelming response was, as now, to go with the Peerless. Unfortunately, I haven't yet made my mind up (as the Godin Kingpin CW also entered the equation - laminated hollow body + P90s, just a different thickness to the 330/Casino).

[Nearhigh]

I'd already have gone for the Godin myself if I weren't uncomfortable with the acoustic loudness of full-depth guitars. JazzyJim, I'm in Finland and I don't know of a reputable European international net store carrying Peerless, so would have to pay brick-and-mortar premium.

[mad dog]

If the Epi 330 serial number starts with R, it's Peerless made anyway. Or at least this is what I was told. I think Peerless made several of the Epis up until 2006. You could probably get the Epi version more cheaply.

I have not played either. My guess is both will be roughly equivalent in quality (high). I'm also guessing you'd be a pickup swap away from totally ecstatic. Otherwise excellent guitars are often let down in this area. It was so in my Peerless Wizard. A few judicious changes later, this guitar is a far better instrument than the modest price would suggest.
MD

[jazzbow]

I'm in Finland and I don't know of a reputable European international net store carrying Peerless, so would have to pay brick-and-mortar premium.

No peerless but a great internet store for other brands, these guys had godin 5th ave's before anyone else in europe

www.thomann.de

[jazzbow]

If the Epi 330 serial number starts with R, it's Peerless made anyway. Or at least this is what I was told.

Check my previous post for the blue book link, look under epiphone and then you'll find that there was 4 korean companies making these guitars as well as indonesian companies during this time frame. I've just been given a 2005 rivera to set up for a customer, this was made in the Unsung guitar factory. As said before, peerless for this type of guitar or if you can get one, an unsung 335 type model if you want a semi.

Welcome to Un-Sung Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.

[mangotango]

Has there ever been a thread on this forum without a Sadowsky recommendation?

I think there was once a thread under "The Players" about Django where NOBODY actually said "Mind you, imagine what he'd have sounded like if he'd played a Sadowsky!"

I could be wrong.

Having said that, I'd love a Sadowsky, thanks.

[benjazzman82]

Hey everyone. I have a casino from 2001 made in the peerless factory. Its quite road worn btbis being sold at the moment. I amna sucker for peerless thouh and use a manhattam as my main gig guitar. I do however want a songbird aswell. Great guitars

[jzucker]

In my experience, Korean made guitars are still considerably better then Chinese made guitars.

Ouch. Who makes better guitars ? Whites or blacks? Or blues or greens? You can't generalize and you certainly can't generalize based on race, ethnicity or geography.

[nado64]

I think geography is important for lutherie. The quality of the woods are not the same. It's the secret of Stradivarius.

[reventlov]

I think geography is important for lutherie. The quality of the woods are not the same. It's the secret of Stradivarius.

No - the secret of Stradivarius was the volcanic ash mixed with the varnish he used

[nado64]

Don't say "no" like that.
On Wikipedia :

Nonetheless, some maintain that the very best Stradivari have unique superiorities.[11] Various attempts at explaining these supposed qualities have been undertaken, most results being unsuccessful or inconclusive. Over the centuries, numerous theories have been presented – and debunked – including an assertion that the wood was salvaged from old cathedrals. Dendrochronology, or tree-ring dating, has proved this false.

A more modern theory attributes tree growth during a time of global cold temperatures during the Little Ice Age associated with unusually low solar activity of the Maunder Minimum, circa 1645 to 1750, during which cooler temperatures throughout Europe are believed to have caused stunted and slowed tree growth, resulting in unusually dense wood.[12] Further evidence for this "Little Ice Age theory" comes from a simple examination of the dense growth rings in the wood used in Stradivari's instruments.[13] Two researchers – University of Tennessee tree-ring scientist Henri Grissino-Mayer and Lloyd Burckle, a Columbia University climatologist – published in the journal Dendrochronologia their conclusions supporting the theory on increased wood density.[14]

In 2008 Dutch researchers announced further evidence that wood density caused the claimed high quality of these instruments. After examining the violins with X-rays, the researchers found that these violins all have extremely consistent density, with relatively low variation in the apparent growth patterns of the trees that produced this wood.[15]

Yet another possible explanation is that the wood originated in and was harvested from the forests of northern Croatia.[16] This maple wood is known for its extreme density resulting from the slow growth caused by harsh Croatian winters. Croatian wood was a commodity traded by Venetian merchants of the era, and is used today by local luthiers and craftsfolk for musical instruments.

Some research points to wood preservatives used in that day as contributing to the resonant qualities. Joseph Nagyvary[17][18] reveals that he has always held the belief that there are a wide range of chemicals that will improve the violins' sound. In a 2009 study co-authored with Drs. Renald Guillemette and Clifford Spiegelman, Nagyvary managed to get hold of shavings from a Stradivarius violin and examined them: burning small amounts to find their chemical composition showed that the wood shavings contained "borax, fluorides, chromium and iron salts."[19] He also found that the wood had decayed a little, to the extent that the filter plates in the pores between the wood's component tracheids had rotted away, perhaps while the wood was stored in or under water in the Venice lagoon before Stradivarius used it.

My new guitar Custom77 is made in Korea by a french brand and the wood comes from usa.

And for Epiphone guitars, I have the same experience than Little Jay.

[jzucker]

how is geography important? You think Gibson grows the mahogany and ebony locally?

[nado64]

The thread talks about Epiphone and Peerless. Epiphone sells guitar for people wants a cheap guitar, it's not the same politic than Gibson, Sadowsky or D'angelico. (this brands made some models in Asia)

Epiphone doesn't use ebony. (and I don't think Gibson uses the real ebony)
Epiphone doesn't use mahogany but nyatoh. This tree grows only in Asia.

The others woods, maple and spruce grows in Asia.

I know by a french lutherie who went in a korean factory, Epiphone uses the local maple and the local spruce.

But I think the more important is to try a guitar.
If you compare the same Epiphone model made in korea and the same Epiphone model made in china, I think you would say like us.

Why german cars are better than french cars ?

[reventlov]

nado64 - the subject of Stradivarius tone is in fact quite controversial - the quality of wood used in any instrument is obviously important but the fact is that few of the various scientists who have investigated the subject place much weight on the belief that this is where the secret lies. The wood supply at the time of the Cremona school was tightly controlled by the Italian government, who took for their own use (mainly ship-building) the wood which they judged to be the best quality. Wood was transported around via floating it down rivers; by the time the violin makers of Cremona got there hands on it, it was thoroughly soaked plus they had no control over the quality - they pretty much had to take what they could get from what was available. Research shows that they dried the wood out, sometimes naturally and sometimes using anti-fungal concoctions; they then applied a coat of 'pre varnish' to seal the wood, which contained amongst other things volcanic ash; finally a full varnish was applied. That combination of different treatments of the wood obviously would have an effect on how the instrument vibrated and therefore how it sounded; precisely which of these processes is the vital one is controversial - it may be that it's actually the combination of processes is what is important.

Here's a sample of the kind of thinking in this field - The varnished truth about a Stradivarius | Books | The Guardian - there's lots about this online, with lots of theories being put forward. One thing however that they all have in common is that none of them think that the quality and type of the wood used is the answer to how Stradivarius instruments sound as they do.

So how is this relevant to a discussion of Epiphone and Peerless guitars? Well I guess that really what it all shows is that the type and quality of wood is only one of the many factors (and not necessarily the most important one) which give an instrument it's sound; and when you discuss electric guitars, you then have a situation in which the wood plays even less part in the final sound than in an acoustic instrument. Please note I'm not saying the wood plays NO part, just that it's only one piece of the 'tone' jigsaw, and that other things are almost certainly more important.

Sorry to be so long winded but you made a statement that the wood was 'the secret of Stradivarius' which is not borne out by any of the serious researchers who have turned their attention the this very point, and you made this statement as if it were a matter of fact when it is actually only an opinion, which has little support by the experts in the field.

[Little Jay]

Ouch. Who makes better guitars ? Whites or blacks? Or blues or greens? You can't generalize and you certainly can't generalize based on race, ethnicity or geography.

Nothing to do with race or ethnicity or even geography, but with economics, business approach and historical development. Koreans have been making guitars for much longer now and the Chinese approach for making profit is putting large quantities on the market for a lower price, which means corners have to be cut somewhere right?

Chinese guitars are definately getting better, especially brands like The Loar and Eastman, but those have different business philosophies I think and aim for a different market segment. I still like Korean-made Epiphones and Ibanezes better then their Chinese counterparts of the same models.

[jzucker]

Nothing to do with race or ethnicity or even geography, but with economics, business approach en historical development. Koreans have been making guitars for much longer now and the Chinese approach for making profit is putting large quantities on the market for a lower price, which means corners have to be cut somewhere right?

Chinese guitars are definately getting better, especially brands like The Loar and Eastman, but those have different business philosophies I think and aim for a different market segment. I still like Korean-made Epiphones and Ibanezes better then their Chinese counterparts of the same models.

Sorry but I disagree with your generalizations. The eastmans are in a different league than the peerless but that's not because of Koreans or Chinese or Indonsesians or Russions or Japanese. It's because they have put out a specific product within a certain market segment.

I like chocolate ice cream but I wouldn't post that it's "better made" than vanilla.