My First Jazz Guitar - Help!

[Reg]

Hey Jtizzle... I agree with getting an archtop... but the guy is a beginner... never played guitar before. At what point do you really believe he'll be playing in ensemble settings. If he's exceptionally talented and has lots of time to put in... what maybe two years... He needs a guitar he can take anywhere he might go... and not worry about beating it up.

I have a 335 and a 347... great guitars, but for beginners ? not as bad as most solid bodies... but still not great for developing technique. Pop tunes always work on acoustics.

Might do better buying cheap acoustic and cheap archtop... used.

[goldenwave77]

Ed Bickert's jazz tone on a tele...Ted Greene on a tele...Danny Gatton playing Harlem Nocturne...Joe pass played a tele a lot starting out....Danny Gatton playing Harlem Nocturne...Eldon Shamblin playing western swing on a strat...

Gee, I'd be happy to play/sound like any one of these guys...your mileage may differ...as the saying goes..

[raywongks]

Thanks all once again, and yes, I am thinking I need at least a couple of years before I am okay to play in front of people. I also think a simple acoustic one I can pick up and practice the scales, chords and tunes even when I have only 15 or even 10 minutes of time. : )

[goldenwave77]

I think I'd rather start on a tele...that is decently set up, rather than an acoustic cheapo...I know a lot of people who wanted to play guitar--bought an acoustic cheapie....and gave it up rather than struggling with it.

Also, the questioner is an apt. dweller---trying to practice at night makes you want to hold back on playing decisively for fear of playing too loudly.

With a solid body, you learn to pick decisively, and finger cleanly, if you play unamplified to get any sort of reasonable tone...I think that actually helps technique...

Also, I believe that solid body electrics have purer tones than acoustics---less wavering of the tuning needle---fewer overtones---I think that playing them cleanly at a low volume is actually easier for a beginner to hear pitches rather than playing an acoustic instrument...definitely less rich but more "in the pocket" so to speak

[JakeAcci]

Reg, what is the reasoning behind the idea of not starting on a solid body electric? People seem to be arguing against a point that hasn't been made yet.

[Reg]

Hey Jake... technique development, I believe different technique develops from playing solid bodies... I didn't say bad... just different. Ease of use, most beginners need to take and hear guitar where ever they go. Not just late night in their app.

The chap who has taught for 20 years, as directed to by Goldenwave... is not a jazz player, I don't believe he knows what playing jazz is. Listen to his playing... very nice, on acoustic but not even close to playing Jazz.

And I disagree with most of Goldenwaves comments... that's cool, we're all entitled to our opinions. In a perfect world where everything is fair and beautiful, (I guess that's perfect...), anyway most beginners don't have lessons and when they do their teachers usually are not the best players, especially with regards to jazz technique. I believe it's more difficult to develop bad technique on an acoustic as compared to solid body.

We're not talking about a player who has a few years in and might be able to decide for themselves, which Raywongks will in the end anyway.

That's just one opinion... man I got shoes that I've been waring to Jazz Gigs for more that 20 years...
Sorry I always dig that line.

In the end who cares... at least there has been a discussion for the OP to think about.
Reg

[JakeAcci]

Is it that you think it's easier to transition from flat top with higher actions and thicker strings to archtop with the same, rather than going from solid body with low action and thin strings later transitioning to archtop?

[Patrick2]

Reg and Jake; I hear and understand . . (and fully agree with) Reg's council on not starting with a solid body when the desired end result is to learn "jazz guitar". I also hear and understand the questioning of Jake, as to why Reg would offer such a caveat.

I think the underlying basis for Reg's caveat and Jake's questions, might once again lead to a question of "which form of jazz guitar are you talking about?" Or . . "what is jazz?"

Les Paul was very comfortable playing what he considers to be jazz guitar, on a solid body . . . Larry Carlton is comfortable playing what he considers to be jazz guitar, on a semi . . . and Herb Ellis probably wouldn't have been comfortable with anything other than a traditional jazz box. Those are just a vew of many examples we each could site.

If the OP want's to be only a fusion jazz player . . he could start with a solid body. But, if he want to play . . . "jazz guitar" (uh-oh) . . . I'd agree with Reg.

[goldenwave77]

My experience

When, at the age of 35 I decided I wanted to learn to play some of the music I'd listened to for over 20 yrs...I bought myself a Strat--found a teacher, Peter Mazza, in NYC on 54th St. (amazing chord melody player--check out his YouTube stuff) and took a series of about 12 lessons over the course of a yr.

I had no formal music theory...had never played an instrument successfully before (except for maybe 8 mos. of guitar with the world's worst teacher as a 12 yr. old--never got out of open positions--pure rote learning--didn't take).

Peter showed me the absolute basics...this is a major scale...these are intervals...harmonizing a scale produces these chords...this is what the intervals look like on the fretboard...all that in the 1st lesson or so...had listened to a lot of jazz...learned why Bird's lines were so fluid (ah so...the extra #5 or the #7 in bebop major, and bebop dominant)...now go and practice these major scale forms...do you know what an arpeggio is? Came back a month later....

.....2nd lesson---we talked about chord structure---here are basic 5th and 6th string forms---do you know how to form a bar chord--yes--OK--major 7---5th and 6th, minor 7th--5th and 6th string...dominant chords---can you find the sharp 9 off the 5th string form--yes--there it is ...the Hendrix chord---now on the top string off the 6th string---stretch, stretch there it is...now the flat 9th off the 6th string form....remember that one---comes up often on the 6 chord...lets talk about chord tone resolutions and secondary dominants....go work on these chord progressions...play the chords...arpeggios, and these scale forms...now lets talk about solo construction....sing me a Bird line...yeah Billie's Bounce is a good one

Like a lot of people on this site...had a day job...home from work...sit down in the apt. at 8 or so...."Headphones please"--says the wife---kids to bed soon...sure not a problem---put them on...continue to play away until bedtime....not a problem with the headphone jack on the amp---and that Strat is really easy to play...sure beats that crummy acoustic I had as a kid.

Also, FWIW...I have absolutely no affiliation with the justinguitar website...but a moment's look through it, shows that he has put in a LOT of work and effort....I think his care as a teacher shows....whether he is teaching pure jazz or not..though even there is some fairly significant jazz stuff, though not as specialized as the stuff on this site...

You may be a great player...but that doesn't mean you're a great teacher...there are plenty of sports heroes who are complete flameouts as coaches or front-office managers (Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Honus Wagner, Isaih Thomas--the list could go on and on). You may, in fact, be a very good teacher...but if you are----then there has to be a better reason than....I've been doing this a long time--and you have shoes that predate fusion music....the worthless guitar teacher I had as a 12 yr. old was middle-aged...in contrast Peter Mazza was relatively young--chronologically--though at a very, very high level musically--even then...Thelonious Monk semi-finalist, etc. ...he also used to make me laugh when he would change his comping in flight, if his students failed to make the changes properly, so that you didn't sound too too bad....before he explained and corrected your mistake afterward...and his chord melody stuff was amazing even then...I think I pleased him one time when, even though I couldn't quite understand or explain what he was doing, I told him that it reminded me of Bill Evans' playing.

So now I'm back into playing again...after laying off for a few years...the kids have grown up for the most part...and man I'm still glad I'm not doing chord voicings on an acoustic flattop...and I'm happy that I found a teacher who was inspirational and knowledgable...sure jazz on a solid body---Ed Bickert and Mike Stern do OK with it...no problemo...now let's get into it.

[cosmic gumbo]

I think that a well set up acoustic can play almost as easy as a solid body, at least mine does. An acoustic can teach you how to get a good sound from a guitar all by itself, with a pick, with your fingers...what doesn't sound good on acoustic if executed well, which is what we all need to learn. This usually translates to a good sound on most any style of electric. For the dollar, you can get a nicer acoustic than an amp and an electric. IMO. This guy already taught himself to play the sax, so he knows what he's in for when learning an instrument. I think the electric is easier mentality is moot in this case.

[Stevebol]

Just get a Godin and give it a chance. It takes about 4 months/couple hours a day to break acoustics in anyway. Move on to something else if you don't like it.

[goldenwave77]

As I said, tried playing at age 12--crummy acoustic and a bad teacher were enough to convince me not to keep going.

But I always liked listening to music...when I grew up NY area had WRVR--24 hr. jazz station with Uncle Ed Beech--walking talking ENCYCLOPEDIA of jazz knowledge...listened for yrs. as teenager...went to college-- was a radio station DJ briefly...later on when I could afford a stereo, starting buying vinyl records...collection got up to about 200 albums---lot of old Blue Note releases...rule of thumb was ---about 3/4 of the time a Blue Note from the 50's up to mid-60's was worth buying...Horace Silver...Jazz messengers...Donald Byrd...Grant Green...Curtis Fuller...I mean the list just went on and on...also inherited some records from older brothers...Django and Diz and Bird...Sidney Bechet...the original Decca double-album that Basie's band did in late 30's...had one Bird/Diz album---I think it was a Dial reissue----about 6 or 8 great tunes "Moose the Mooch" "Scrapple from the Apple" "Billie's Bounce" "Now's the Time" "Night in Tunisia"...I think "Confirmation"---man I wore that disk out!!

Starting reading a little about the music...Gary Giddins' book on "Jazz Styles" I think it was...I could relate to some of the stuff in the book but let's face it, without being musically conversant as in being able to play...which means you learn enough to figure it out....a lot of music prose is just kind of meaningless...I read that Louis Armstrong was "harmonically advanced" and "anticipated some of the stuff that beboppers did."...also had the Smithsonian Classic Jazz Collection--very good for tracing style developments...again a lay person's understanding limited me in understanding this...I think I did read about the bebop scales...and how they allowed more fluidity...which is easy enough to hear

Turned 35, bought a strat on 48th St., found a teacher on 54th St., explained that I'd listened to a lot of jazz and wanted to learn to play some...as I said, 1st lesson was--This is a major scale...whole step, whole step whole step half step whole step whole step whole step half step....one fret=half step (duh)...OK here is an in-position major scale, starting on 6th string--2nd finger,no string shifts--2 octaves to top...do you know "archipelago" meaning---a group of islands...well an ar-pegg-io is like groups of notes--we skip every other note...so 1-3-5-7, 2-4-6-8, 3-5-7-9(2), 4-6-8(1)-3, 5-7-9(2)-4, etc.-- that alone gets you several arpeggios based on that major scale fingering...I remembered asking if Bird played major scale...as it didn't really sound like "Do re mi...", and my teacher said "Well Bird and Diz, and Monk and Charlie C. figured out that adding another note made the scale into double-meter not an odd number of notes"...thus longer lines were possible....I had also listened to Eddie Jefferson who did vocaleze versions of classic jazz instrumentals...I remember one Bird tune he did "All the cats are standing on the corner....etc, etc....I got a Cadillac if you want a ride"...I mean you can hear the slurs and chromatics....even if I didn't know the technical explanation....Peter Mazza, my teacher showed me the sharped 5th...and said play around with it...as you work on that scale...make up little phrases...sing them back to yourself...some notes will sound better than others....see if you can figure it out...I'll see you in a month or so or when you think you're ready for some stuff to work on....and as I said before, when I asked my teacher about a solid body...he said, it doesn't really matter, and then he said "Let's get into it...." meaning lets talk about the music.....and on that note...I think I'll retire from this discussion...because honestly...gear talk is just not something that interests me very much...it probably ranks up there with talking about salary caps in following sports teams...


And honestly, the idea that this guy is going to become a hair guitar--metalized head-banger because he might play with a solid body is not something I would spend much time worrying about...Geez the guy already said he plays some sax....

so that's my story....without a solid-body that could easily be "quiet-ized" by playing through a headphone jack, or just playing it unamplified at night....I doubt I could have even played a guitar, at night, after work...and made whatever progress I've been able to make...yes, I do love archtops---my 175 late 70's Aria Pro II with the Pete Biltoft P90 humbucker-sized neck pu is near and dear to me...at least as good as many Gibson 175's Ive AB-ed it against...and yes my acoustic archtop, Benedetto type build, carved spruce top and maple sides with the floating Kent Armstrong sounds heavenly...but I wouldn't inflict in on my apt. neighbors at night--even unamplified it is too loud...and the same goes for my Heritage flattop 445 acoustic guitar.

But as they say....your mileage may differ...I've laid out my reasoning...and hopefully you may have learned something, or even had to think a bit about why you believe what you believe...but if you didn't, that's OK too....Ill sleep well tonight, in any event.

[raywongks]

Thank you all or all the great input!

Yeah！ I went to the shop today, I tried one Martin acoustic flat top and the Godin 5th ave model. Both around USD5-600.

I think I am ok with both, sound-wise, just the Godin feel a little bit not very solid, I am a little bit hesitated. Just my feelling only. But this 5th ave is very nice to play!

I think my plan now is to find an better flat top acoustic to start with and I am not sure if I can find a really nice flat top acoustic if I increase my budget to USD1000. Later, with progress I will go with the Gibson 335. (So I can have excuse to keep two more instruments at home! Haha!)

Unfortunayely, Loar is not available here in the city I live.

By the way, to share with you guys, I am in early Forties father of two. I want to complete my dream of learning musical instruments which I dream for since I was a kid when my family econ doesn't allow.

I love the blue note on my sax too! ：）I have a teacher for that. But for Guitar, I want to self learn at my spare time.

Good day to all of you!

[mr. beaumont]

The Godins are well built, they even have bolt on necks! Very much a worry free archtop you don't have to baby.

I suggest the Kingpin model, so you can plug in if the time comes too. A lot of guitar for the $.

[raywongks]

Hello all, just an update, I brought an $200 Washburn flattop acoustic guitar to start with. I believe there is a long long journey ahead. Thank you so much for helping!

[kofblz]

Hello all, just an update, I brought an $200 Washburn flattop acoustic guitar to start with. I believe there is a long long journey ahead. Thank you so much for helping!

The first guitar I ever bought was a $200 Washburn and then a month later I bought a $300 Washburn for my buddy so I'd have someone to play with. Now he's got both of them.

[pingu]

Hello all, just an update, I brought an $200 Washburn flattop acoustic guitar to start with. I believe there is a long long journey ahead. Thank you so much for helping!

Get it set up by a good luthier !

[Krah13]

I believe that with Ibanez Artcore series guitars you cannot go wrong. For an amp I will advise you to buy something from the Roland Cube series.

[robby27]

You say you're a beginner, but you seem to me to have a real passion for learning to play music. My recommendation is to go ahead and invest in a good quality instrument and get it professionally setup to make it optimally easy to play. I'm partial to electric arch tops. Ibanez and Eastman have some professional quality hollow bodies in the less than $1000 range that will continue to satisfy as you improve. Epiphone ES 335s and 339s are good guitars also, and very versatile for jazz, rock, country and/or funk. I do believe hollow bodies are probably better for long term technique development.

[AlanGM]

Get something that feels and sounds nice. You're probably gonna have to buy some new stuff in less than 5 years if you start taking it a little more serious. Get a strat and a decent fender amp? I don't know. Again go and try for yourself. Your ears and fingers will judge best.

[SpazzHead]

RAY! good job on the Washburn.

You did the right thing. Buy cheap and or used. As you progress and evolve in your playing you will be going through a *lot* of guitars and other gear. When I started I had no idea I'd end up playing acoustic swing jazz. I spent a lot of cash on buying the "perfect guitar" many times only to be sold for a lot less later on.