Breaking in a new archtop

[lpdeluxe]

Unlike guitars, violins of the Stradivarius (or Cremona) design are in dynamic balance. The pieces integrate in a way that the simpler guitars can't match. One aspect of the Cremona builders (notably, Amati and Guarani, as well as Strad) that is often overlooked is that most of them have been repaired over and over and over through the centuries, and they still sound like, well, like Amatis and Guaranis and Strads. Which is to say, a hell of a lot better than others.

So, contrast this with the 'Burst phenomenon which depends on original, untouched instruments for market value. Surely the contrast is self-evident.

I've always suspected that the pristine, high-value Les Pauls that command insane prices are exactly those that were never played because they were sonically inferior.

Not that I have any direct experience....

[Drifter]

Don't want to be a nitpicker but the guy was called Guarneri, not Guarani.

Those early Italian voilin wizards like Stradivari, Amati and Guarneri were outstanding craftsmen indeed but they were also lucky because the wood used for violin building in their time was exceptionally good. Better than in any era before or after. This was due to climatic conditions - in the centuries before Italian violin building came to its prime, it was comparatively cold in Europe and as a result, the trees grew differently, producing less dense wood which results in a nicer tone.

So had it be too warm instead of too cold in those centuries, chances are that today nobody would know about Stradivari and his colleagues.

I hope I remember correctly, it's quite some time ago that I've read about it.

[Drifter]

Maybe I should add that I don't want to state this as fact. But it's part of the everlasting discussion about the magic sound of Stardivari violins and the attempt to explain the reasons for it. German wikipedia has a nice article about it, so whoever can read German might want to take a look. There was also a TV documentary about it in French. If you can find it anywhere, it should prove interesting.
Le mystère Stradivarius (2006) (TV)

[randyc]

This gets better and better - this is a conversation that recurs often, never resolved (and maybe it cannot be). But intelligent disputation contributes to dispelling voodoo, snake oil and bat milk theories.

Cheers,
Randy

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[Steve Hoffman]

I've been following this thread was amusement (and also interest).

Back in 2006 I "impulsed bought" a 2004 Gibson Cermona Sunburst L-5 CES and the thing "strummed" dead as a doornail acoustically. I really haven't played it since (having other guitars to occupy my time) but today I opened the case and gave it a try. Yikes, much better. Same strings, same room, same everything. Hell, same time of day. It just "opened up" acoustically. I couldn't believe it.

I cannot account for it at all. Any ideas? The thing has been aging in the case or some other weird explanation?

[Drifter]

You're mistaken, Randy, it's not bat milk or cheese, it's worms.

Stradivari 'owes it all to worms' - Telegraph

[Papadoc]

On TV several years ago I saw some report about a bunch of logs retrieved from the bottom of a lake, where they had been since a logging mishap in the late 19th or early 20th century. It was said that this wood, because it had aged under extraordinary conditions would have extraordinary acoustics and therefore make extraordinary guitars, violins, etc. I have heard nothing more since then about this. In the discussion they talked about the Cremona wood and its unique acoustic properties and speculated about the aging techniques the luthiers may have use. Anyone recall hearing about any instruments made from this wood?

[praesentire]

On TV several years ago I saw some report about a bunch of logs retrieved from the bottom of a lake, where they had been since a logging mishap in the late 19th or early 20th century. It was said that this wood, because it had aged under extraordinary conditions would have extraordinary acoustics and therefore make extraordinary guitars, violins, etc. I have heard nothing more since then about this. In the discussion they talked about the Cremona wood and its unique acoustic properties and speculated about the aging techniques the luthiers may have use. Anyone recall hearing about any instruments made from this wood?

Found an interesting read. Recovered Old Growth Timber

Now if only there's a smoothie that I can drink everyday that will enhance my muscle memory learning speed ...

[brad4d8]

On TV several years ago I saw some report about a bunch of logs retrieved from the bottom of a lake, where they had been since a logging mishap in the late 19th or early 20th century....I have heard nothing more since then about this.

For a while, "sinker redwood" for parlor guitars was showing up on the Bay, may still be, but I'm not monitoring it at the present time. Almost ordered some when I was thinking about building a small bodied guitar, but don't really have the time for it so I didn't.
Brad

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I think there's a fair bit of this recovered wood around. I remember it being used for hardwood flooring, at a premium price.

[Papadoc]

That article on recovered old growth timber sounds exactly like what I saw on TV. It also sounds alot like an advertisement. I was curious if, after all the hype and hope, did the instruments made from this wood actually demonstrate superior sound? Anyone heard of such?

[Drifter]

lpdeluxe, I agree that much remains theory and speculation. However, some theories are strengthened by facts. For example this wood quality theory and the connection to climatic conditions. A wood analysis of a Stradivari cello spruce top has shown it has a density of only 390 kg/m³, while standard spruce has about 450 kg/m³. For further reading:

Martin Schleske: Empirical Tools in Contemporary Violin Making. Part I. Analysis of Design, Materials, Varnish and Normal Modes. in: CAS Journal. Series II. Montclair 4.2002, No.5, ISSN 0882-2212

Now I'm not a boilogist but if spruce trees grow less dense wood in colder climatic conditions and it's a fact that Europe suffered a small ice age between the 16th and 18th century , I can see a context there.

The question remaining is why modern instrument manufacturers don't just use spruce wood from trees grown in colder areas of the world. Maybe they do, at least some high-end luthiers. I don't know.

My point is, not everything is bat milk that comes up in these discussions and that seems unreasonable at first.

I most definitely agree that those instruments wouldn't have lasted if they hadn't been perceived to be superior when they were new.

[randyc]

...The question remaining is why modern instrument manufacturers don't just use spruce wood from trees grown in colder areas of the world. Maybe they do, at least some high-end luthiers. I don't know...

Sitka spruce is the most common top material for high quality American accoustic instruments. You're correct that close-grain woods from a northern climate are regarded as superior for accoustic purposes.

Of course there is the "pallet guitar" that Bob Taylor made from scrap oak shipping pallets as a demonstration that traditional theories do not have to be applied to produce a guitar that sounds great.

And also the "pine" guitar made by Bob Benedetto of which he states, "sounds and plays as good as any made from expensive tonewoods".

Having pointed out these two "odd" examples, however, the two luthiers mentioned above normally use the same traditional materials (such as Sitka spruce) that the larger manufacturers (Gibson, Martin) have always used.

PS: in the reference comparing density of spruce, the lower density of the Stradivarius top is completely consistent with loss of moisture over a period of aging. Flexing a piece of wood for a couple hundred years - without any loss in moisture - would simply result in a piece of wood that has been weakened by continual exercise but is still a piece of "green" wood. Engineers describe the failure that occurs in materials that have never been exposed to their yield point or ultimate strength as "fatigue" failures.

The mechanism was first discovered when the British "Comet" series of jet-liners started falling from the sky. British engineers rigged a clever method of flexing the sealed fuselage of the aircraft by submerging it in a pool of water and then raising and lowering the internal pressure with forced air. They found that aluminum failed (around the window portholes) at a far lower stress level than measured statically. Before this time (early 1950s) "fatigue failure" was not generally known.

[fumblefingers]

Sitka spruce is the most common top material for high quality American accoustic instruments. You're correct that close-grain woods from a northern climate are regarded as superior for accoustic purposes.

Of course there is the "pallet guitar" that Bob Taylor made from scrap oak shipping pallets as a demonstration that traditional theories do not have to be applied to produce a guitar that sounds great.

And also the "pine" guitar made by Bob Benedetto of which he states, "sounds and plays as good as any made from expensive tonewoods".

Having pointed out these two "odd" examples, however, the two luthiers mentioned above normally use the same traditional materials (such as Sitka spruce) that the larger manufacturers (Gibson, Martin) have always used.

PS: in the reference comparing density of spruce, the lower density of the Stradivarius top is completely consistent with loss of moisture over a period of aging. Flexing a piece of wood for a couple hundred years - without any loss in moisture - would simply result in a piece of wood that has been weakened by continual exercise but is still a piece of "green" wood. Engineers describe the failure that occurs in materials that have never been exposed to their yield point or ultimate strength as "fatigue" failures.

The mechanism was first discovered when the British "Comet" series of jet-liners started falling from the sky. British engineers rigged a clever method of flexing the sealed fuselage of the aircraft by submerging it in a pool of water and then raising and lowering the internal pressure with forced air. They found that aluminum failed (around the window portholes) at a far lower stress level than measured statically. Before this time (early 1950s) "fatigue failure" was not generally known.

if i am not mistaken, a differentiator for Bob is the use of Euro or German woods. he also uses domestic wood but not as frequently (at least not as frequently on his "flagship" series).

[randyc]

Hey fumblefingers, haven't "seen" you here for a while. Which Bob, LOL?

My point was that both makers follow the convention established by minor luthiers and mass-production factories - despite the artistic "statements" that I mentioned above. (I have photos of both of those guitars and they are <ahem> striking in appearance, even to the inclusion of knot-holes in the tops.)

When artisanship is considered, I am a staunch conservative - no reason to change a single thing when performance and longevity of a product is acceptable (particularly regarding the products of Gibson and C.F. Martin). These instruments are not fat ladies that require a battery-driven exercise belt to improve their performance.

And of course you didn't make that assertion. You probably don't support it, either - since (to my recollection) you are an educated man who makes his living in a manner that most would regard as "scientific". I hope that it is clear that this is widely addressed to those participating in this topic rather than a long-winded response to your brief, factual note.

Musicians are a curious lot ... combining innate conservatism with a mystical viewpoint such as the one that stimulated this lengthy discussion. (Which seems to occur every nine months or so, with the same participants and the same lack of conclusion.)

I like to buy good stuff - products with a known history of performance and with enhanced value over time. There's no reason why I can't enjoy playing a fine instrument for many years and sell it at a profit, LOL. As I stated in the introduction to the Carvin SH-550 review, I believe that most younger guitarists (and quite a few older ones) prefer style to substance and COST over everything.

Oops, election-year posturing is pervasive, sorry about the rant, guys !

Cheers,
Randy C

[fumblefingers]

thanks RandyC. i own guitars with Euro and domestic woods. BTW i am interested in your comments about wood and humidity.

when you hear that woods are "aged and seasoned" what does that mean to you? (no, not stored in an oak barrel for 20 years or salt, pepper & garlic).

i am not sure, but i assume that it means its kept for years and allowed to experience humidity and dryness cycles but in a narrow band so to speak. but i really dont know.

thanks.

[billkath]

My father was a master cabinet maker. His idea of seasoned was that the 1/4 sawn wood was kept, out of doors and with a roof over it, for 3 years. No kiln. No fans, no walls or anything-a big open shed. Just the wind rushing through and no rain getting on it. When it had gone through this process it was brought inside to the store shed-a normal walled and roofed, but unheated structure. It was there for 6 months. Then it was ready-seasoned. We don't experience the humidity changes you do in the States, though.

[gpmedium]

It is an interesting discussion, one that will never be resolved, but does give us something to discuss and often prompts us to look deeper.

I do recall watching a documentary on Stradivari violins. They performed a blind hearing test, to see if the panel, all concert violinists, could accurately pick out the Stradivari. They could not.

Last night I checked out some articles on Stradivari violins, one by a physicist. Very interesting and informative. The article went on to discuss how important the shape of the bridge was to the sound of the violin, how important the sound post was, how the strings vibrate, how sound is generated in the sound chamber by the soundboard, etc.

The information on the bridge was enlightening, as previously I had the material from which it was made accounted for the difference of of the sound of wooden bridges and TOM bridges on archtops

The article also discussed the finish, as many believe that the finish Stradivari used on his violins, a "magical" finish if you will, imparted such a great sound on his instruments. Turns out many of them were refinished in the 19th Century.

However, it also contained some of the same premises that we go by with aging woods and breaking in, how a violin changes it's sound over time.

At this point I noted that the physicist was also a violinist. Which suggests that even he was unable to completely divorce himself from "romantic notions" of the instrument.

But I feel that such articles over look the fact the he, Stradivari, was a master craftsman, an artist, and this is the reason his instruments sound so good.

I believe that ability of the craftman, or manufacturing process for today's guitars, is more important than the materials used.

[lpdeluxe]

Stradivarius was still building violins in his 70s. That's the "secret" right there. He explored all the ways of making a violin, and ultimately established the standard for construction. Everything else was fortuitous convergence: he didn't use polyurethane finishes, for example, for the obvious reason that he didn't have any at hand. What he had was not "magical," but the patience allied with experimentation until he figured out exactly how to apply it to best effect.

In more modern times, people don't spend several decades perfecting their art, and perhaps it's no wonder that the contemporary violins are perceived as inferior.

[Jazzaluk]

Stradivarius was still building violins in his 70s. That's the "secret" right there. He explored all the ways of making a violin, and ultimately established the standard for construction. Everything else was fortuitous convergence: he didn't use polyurethane finishes, for example, for the obvious reason that he didn't have any at hand. What he had was not "magical," but the patience allied with experimentation until he figured out exactly how to apply it to best effect.

In more modern times, people don't spend several decades perfecting their art, and perhaps it's no wonder that the contemporary violins are perceived as inferior.

Agreed. Art and craftsmanship involve personal investment, commitment and an evolution of concepts and techniques. This is lost in mass production, which is based on market demand, specification, and Quality Control, which usually involve many specialists, few of which have a real appreciation as to how the product evoloved.

Basically, when a Luthier dies, the craftmanship dies with him, even though the specifications may survive.

Not unlike when a musician dies; their music and concepts may live on in academia but no one will really be able to reproduce their voice.

[lpdeluxe]

The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes that there is no "magic:" just inspiration and the willingness to persevere.

The younger generation venerates the "vintage" Fender tube amp sound, and many obsess over the exact components that produced "that" sound. If we look at what Leo Fender did, we soon discover that he was using off-the-shelf components that anyone could buy, and most of them were not boutique parts. He strove to keep his costs as low as possible, and to design circuits that could be reproduced in quantity and serviced easily.

His experimentation with resistor/capacitor values and his endless tweaking of voltages led to the development of some excellent silk purse guitar amplifiers from what were electronic sow's ears. Young players came along and liked the sounds, and pretty soon the radio waves were awash in a new sound. Another generation grew up on those sounds, and the Fender how-cheap-can-I-make-it-without-electrocuting-the-customers amplifiers became the "iconic" sound of rock and blues and much else besides.

There's no pixie dust there: but there is a person devoting himself to exploiting the technology available to him to achieve the results he wanted.

In contrast, other amplifiers of the same era were restrained, polite, and unpopular -- their designers (or the management teams they were designed for) didn't have Leo's reckless disregard for the conventional.

So now we have endless variations on his circuits, just as the last 400 years have seen endless variations on the Cremona violin. Why aren't the copies as good? Simply that, they copy the wrong things: the outer appearance and superficialities of the originals, without the spark of triumph over materials that informed them.

[TommyD]

Well, there is one "pixie dust" thing. I went to Cremona to the violin museum and discovered that those 17th-Century Cremona violin-makers used wood that came out of ancient buildings - rafters, beams and such - that were upwards of 400 to 800 years old. There was a lot of new building going on in Renaissance Italy at the time Stradavarius, Guarneri, and the others were doing their thing, and you can bet that they made certain to get that wonderful old wood for their fiddles. The wood in a violin has the biggest influence on the quality of the end-product, and that's easy to understand, wood being the one 'controllable' factor that's present in quantity enough to make a noticeable difference, so that's what I think made those violins special.
About experts not being able to select which violin was being played in a "blindfold" test; there was a TV special about great violinists a few years ago, and one woman, the wife of one of the legendary fiddlers, said that in New York, she and her husband lived on a duplex (that's an apartment with two levels for you out-of-towners, no offense), and that when he practiced downstairs, she could always tell whether her husband was playing his Strad or his Guarneri del Jesu (he owned both!).
tommy/

[randyc]

thanks RandyC. i own guitars with Euro and domestic woods. BTW i am interested in your comments about wood and humidity.

when you hear that woods are "aged and seasoned" what does that mean to you? (no, not stored in an oak barrel for 20 years or salt, pepper & garlic).

i am not sure, but i assume that it means its kept for years and allowed to experience humidity and dryness cycles but in a narrow band so to speak. but i really dont know.

thanks.

That is consistent with my understanding as well and Bill's observation is also accurate. I live in a remote county (population per square mile is less than New Zealand) that only has one "industry": logging. The mills season their rough billets exactly as Bill described: they are "stickered" under a cover but with air free to circulate around and through the "stickered" stacks.

Please note, however, that I am not a luthier. I've been doing fine woodworking (i.e. furniture) for more decades than I care to consider but my knowldege of the subject is limited to design, tool skills, finishing compounds and applications and how to account for the effects of temperature and humidity.

I do follow one practise that luthiers follow in that I use no fasteners (nails, pegs or screws) I am a colonial traditionalist in that respect. Mortises and tenons were used without fasteners in the furniture that I most admire (centuries old) so I emulate the craftsmanship to the limit of my abilities.

I rarely use tonewoods for my applications, they are not visually attractive as a rule (koa and maple being exceptions). No piece of furniture that I've ever designed/built really sounds good - for the most part they keep their opinions to themselves

Off of my kitchen is a long, narrow laundry room, The hot water heater and the furnace are located there and the temperature remains in the sixties all year long (on the "north" coast, that is our average temperature and varies +/- five degrees, daytime, over a year). I stack my oak, ash, walnut, maple and tropicals (all of these species can be seen in this small stack behind a garbage receptacle) wherever there is room in this area.

There is also a workbench in this room where I do fine finishing (because of the constant temperature). Large pieces must be finished in the shop which is a pain because I must usually wait 24 hours or so for the dust out there to settle before starting a finishing project. I used to stack my hardwood on this workbench, stickering for air circulation, before I found the laundry room environment to be perfect for finishing. (Stacking the boards vertically isn't ideal, there is a tendancy toward warpage.)

The laundry room is convenient because one door opens to the back yard, I can spray stains and other materials that I don't want migrating around in my shop, out in the yard. Another door opens directly into the shop so I can unload wood in the driveway, carry it through the shop (2-1/2 car garage that has never housed an automobile) and into the laundry room.

The typical seasoning time in the laundry room is three years, at which time the moisture content is generally around 10-15%. Most fine woodworkers regard 10% as optimum. Also, FWIW, I avoid the use of quarter-sawn billets because the grain is too regular - it's simply not attractive in most furniture pieces.

Cheers,
Randy

[hotdog100]

I think a lot of the time the neck, fret board and frets are worn on a used guitar which makes it a lot easier to play. It has something that no builder can reproduce. This makes it more responsive to the fingers and therefore the guitar sounds better. This is not the whole story just part of the mystery. If the neck has a problem, you can tell it could be a good but you don't play it very long.

[hot ford coupe]

I have a good feeling that this discussion will go on as long as there are conscientious guitarists and good guitar builders and that's a really good thing. What that means to me is that you'll always be able to find a superior product at some point (even though you may never be able to afford it).

As far as collectible dead mint guitars and those that have been put away in some kind of vault, they're worthless to me except if they are the only example left to put into a museum. Guitars were meant to be played and many times played hard. I used to be a collector looking for instruments in the best conditions possible. Now, I have a different attitude. I'd rather have an instrument that has been played and lovingly cared for even if it has some dings, scratches, worn areas, been refinished and repaired. IMHO, those are the ones that have sounded the best.