What am I looking for? L-7? L-48? (Gibson Archtop advice)

[scout_3]

Greetings everyone,

I've owned a 1930s Epiphone Zenith for a couple of decades now, and while I'm very pleased with its sound and reliability throughout the years, I must admit that being 1.90 m makes that narrow nut get old very fast. I'm just tired of having to constantly adapt to that toothpick and I'd like to get something by Gibson, as I'm quite used to my early 50s Gibson jumbos and their very comfortable necks, that hopefully maintains what's great about the Epi, but also improves in other areas.

I play mostly early folk, not quite jazz, the Epi is great for that and it has a very nice old timey deep acoustic tone. So I guess I'm looking for a solid carved spruce top with longitudinal tone bar bracing, such as the Epi. I could use a chunkier tone, though, and for that I know I have to probably get into the 17" ones. But I'd really like for it to be short scale, similar to what I have on the acoustic Gibsons, although I don't think that combination exists. I don't mind if it has an old pickup, as I really like that and can use the chunky jazz tone for all sorts of things. I've been eyeing ES150s for a while because I like the look of it, but I don't think those even have bracing...For what it's worth, the Epi with various Dearmonds, including a Rhythm Chief, never really got the electric jazzy tone I'm also after.

I don't need embellishments or fancy parallelograms, a base model is absolutely fine, and cutaways are strictly forbidden. My focus here is tone, comfort and something that stays around the realm of what my Epi is worth nowadays (3k, give or take).

Any pointers would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

[213Cobra]

1.9 meters = 6' 2.803". I'm 6'3" so for all practical purposes, we're the same skeletal size.

I started in guitar with acoustic flat tops in 1968, and owned them exclusively until I branched out into Telecasters and archtops in 1990. I play fingerstyle -- I could never make sense of a flatpick. Since 1990 I have acquired a variety of electric and acoustic archtops -- Gibson, Guild, Epiphone and some others. The closest I have to what you want is my 1944 Gibson L-7 acoustic, which I got from member @thatrhythmman here on this forum.

It's parallel-braced, though it isn't exactly like a Gibson acoustic in scale. It has a robust neck. Neck depth is 1" from the 1st fret to the 10th fret. Very comfortable for me. Acoustically, that L-7 is glorious. It's not really a flat top sound but it has the striking transient response of a flat top and a fair amount of bass along with nice chime. It's dynamically explosive with a lot of mechanical headroom. And these '40s L-7s can be fairly readily found in the $3k - $4K range in great structural condition, thoroughly played-in, and cosmetically appropriate for their age and prior ownership. Tone is beyond reproach for acoustic archtopdom, but the Gibson voice is different from same-era Epiphone. Not better, just different. Add a good floater if you want -- it will sound sublime.

I have some other acoustic archtops, and the one that comes closest to the L-7 and what a "not-quite-jazz" player would want is my 2001 Gibson L-5CT Acoustic, which was carved as an acoustic, but you won't get that for $3K-$4K.

I've encountered a few other 1944 L-7s and all were sonically remarkable. You might like perusing this old thread from 2013 on '40s L-7s here:

'40s Gibson L-7

Good luck! Happy to answer any other questions I didn't address.

Phil

[andrew]

I think an L-50 is probably going to be your best bet. Here's why:

Most 17" Gibson archtops have a 25.5" (long) scale length. Originally in the '20s and early '30s, when Gibson was only making 16" archtops, their instruments had a 24.75" (short) scale length. When they moved to the 'advanced' 17" (and 18") body size in the mid 30's, they went to the long scale length soon after. It may be possible to find a mid '30s soon after the crossover with a 17" body and a short scale, but they are rare and they are going to be more than your budget.

The L-50 is one of the rare 17" Gibsons with the short scale length. It was a more budget friendly model with a carved top, but laminate back and sides. No cutaway. They're pretty abundant in the $2,000-3000 range.


If you're okay with a 16" body, then an L4 also becomes an option.

[Hammertone]

Er, ah... perhaps you might edit your post a bit. The L-50 was a 16" archtop.

[213Cobra]

Er, ah... perhaps you might edit your post a bit. The L-50 was a 16" archtop.

Yup. I bought a splendid, weathered L-50 as an accessible, token, birth-year archtop. 1954. It's really sweet but nothing remotely like my 1944 L-7. -Phil

[ThatRhythmMan]

The short scale, 17” lower bout L-7s aren’t that rare, but they are x-braced. As Hammertone pointed out, the L-50 has a 16” lower bout.

I can’t really think of a Gibson that fits all of the specs you’ve listed other than maybe a few, rare custom ordered pre-war L-5s, like maybe one of the ones made for Dave Barbour. I’m not even sure one of those has all of those specs. A guitar like that would be well above the $3000 range anyway.

If you’re okay with the longer scale, a 17” Epiphone Triumph or maybe Broadway with a wider nut may be your best bet.


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[Mick-7]

cutaways are strictly forbidden.

Why? That limits your potential options.

[scout_3]

Hello Phil,

appreciate the reply! I fear with me being in Europe, the "affordable" L7s I see on ebay and reverb will be much less so once Customs is done with them.

I believe my Epi is worth around 3k, but I'd like to keep it below that, as there's no guarantee that I'll make that sort of money on it.

But I'll certainly keep my eye out for an affordable L7, thanks!

1.9 meters = 6' 2.803". I'm 6'3" so for all practical purposes, we're the same skeletal size.

I started in guitar with acoustic flat tops in 1968, and owned them exclusively until I branched out into Telecasters and archtops in 1990. I play fingerstyle -- I could never make sense of a flatpick. Since 1990 I have acquired a variety of electric and acoustic archtops -- Gibson, Guild, Epiphone and some others. The closest I have to what you want is my 1944 Gibson L-7 acoustic, which I got from member @thatrhythmman here on this forum.

It's parallel-braced, though it isn't exactly like a Gibson acoustic in scale. It has a robust neck. Neck depth is 1" from the 1st fret to the 10th fret. Very comfortable for me. Acoustically, that L-7 is glorious. It's not really a flat top sound but it has the striking transient response of a flat top and a fair amount of bass along with nice chime. It's dynamically explosive with a lot of mechanical headroom. And these '40s L-7s can be fairly readily found in the $3k - $4K range in great structural condition, thoroughly played-in, and cosmetically appropriate for their age and prior ownership. Tone is beyond reproach for acoustic archtopdom, but the Gibson voice is different from same-era Epiphone. Not better, just different. Add a good floater if you want -- it will sound sublime.

I have some other acoustic archtops, and the one that comes closest to the L-7 and what a "not-quite-jazz" player would want is my 2001 Gibson L-5CT Acoustic, which was carved as an acoustic, but you won't get that for $3K-$4K.

I've encountered a few other 1944 L-7s and all were sonically remarkable. You might like perusing this old thread from 2013 on '40s L-7s here:

'40s Gibson L-7

Good luck! Happy to answer any other questions I didn't address.

Phil

[scout_3]

Hi Andrew, I'm beginning to think so myself, judging by the research I've done in the meantime, despite the 16" body.

It really looks like the only solid carved top I can actually afford.

At this point, I'd take the short scale over the 17" body, as I've come to understand it's a pretty rare/expensive combination.

I was hoping the L48 was just a cheaper version and maybe I could swing for that, but the laminate mahogany top is something I'd rather avoid, I guess.

The L-4 seems to be slightly out of my price range, but I'll certainly keep an eye out.

Thanks!

I think an L-50 is probably going to be your best bet. Here's why:

Most 17" Gibson archtops have a 25.5" (long) scale length. Originally in the '20s and early '30s, when Gibson was only making 16" archtops, their instruments had a 24.75" (short) scale length. When they moved to the 'advanced' 17" (and 18") body size in the mid 30's, they went to the long scale length soon after. It may be possible to find a mid '30s soon after the crossover with a 17" body and a short scale, but they are rare and they are going to be more than your budget.

The L-50 is one of the rare 17" Gibsons with the short scale length. It was a more budget friendly model with a carved top, but laminate back and sides. No cutaway. They're pretty abundant in the $2,000-3000 range.


If you're okay with a 16" body, then an L4 also becomes an option.

[scout_3]

Thanks for reply!

I'd really rather avoid Epis necks/nuts entirely, to be honest. I always had a very soft spot for Epi, coming from not being able to remotely afford vintage Gibsons at all, and that archtop has been with me for almost 20 years, but I'm really absolutely done with the neck and I fear stuff from the same vintage will be similar.

I've come to understand that what I want either doesn't exist or is completely out of my price range, so I'm absolutely fine with a 16" body, as long as it's short scale. I'd welcome a pickup, though, as the various Dearmonds I've had over the years are cumbersome and, with 16" bodies, won't really get into that ubiquitous jazz tone.

I'm also looking at ES-150s, but I suppose that top is going to sound very lacking acoustically compared to say an L-50, and I really need the guitar to do both well.

The short scale, 17” lower bout L-7s aren’t that rare, but they are x-braced. As Hammertone pointed out, the L-50 has a 16” lower bout.

I can’t really think of a Gibson that fits all of the specs you’ve listed other than maybe a few, rare custom ordered pre-war L-5s, like maybe one of the ones made for Dave Barbour. I’m not even sure one of those has all of those specs. A guitar like that would be well above the $3000 range anyway.

If you’re okay with the longer scale, a 17” Epiphone Triumph or maybe Broadway with a wider nut may be your best bet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scout_3]

Nothing against people who like them and use them, but I always feel an acoustic guitar with a cutaway looks disfigured.

Why? That limits your potential options.

[djg]

Hello Phil,

appreciate the reply! I fear with me being in Europe, the "affordable" L7s I see on ebay and reverb will be much less so once Customs is done with them.

where in europe are you located? i have an L-7 from 1937 (i assume) that i might be willing to part with. but it would have to be picked up locally. edit: also a rare 50s ES-135 with two p90 if you want to go the electric route.

[scout_3]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

I think I've narrowed it down to either a miracle priced L7 (or similar) or an L50.
L50 is probably more realistic, though.

I'm also considering either an ES125 or an ES150. I understand the tops are laminated, but I'm trying to gather how they compare to say an L-50 acoustically, despite that.

My priority remains the acoustic tone, but I could really use a pickup (not a fan of the various Dearmonds, etc.) and a vintage P90 has its appeal to me on a 17" body, despite the long scale. If I end up getting an L50, I'll likely get a floater CC from Peter B. on a custom pickguard.

If anyone's looking for a great Zenith with the original case...

[scout_3]

where in europe are you located? i have an L-7 from 1937 (i assume) that i might be willing to part with. but it would have to be picked up locally.

Hey djg, I'm in Portugal. You?

[djg]

Hey djg, I'm in Portugal. You?

ahh. germany

[scout_3]

Long drive!

The L7 is probably too good for me, though!

I tend to gravitate towards more humble instruments, to be honest. When I have really good stuff, imposter syndrome kicks in at full force.

ahh. germany

[andrew]

Dang it! I knew I was going to goof up one of the specs!

[garybaldy]

where in europe are you located? i have an L-7 from 1937 (i assume) that i might be willing to part with. but it would have to be picked up locally. edit: also a rare 50s ES-135 with two p90 if you want to go the electric route.

Would the L7 be x braced?

[scout_3]

Hi ThatRhythmMan,

I just came across this video of yours:

First of all, what a room! Congratulations.

I wanted to ask, as I'm also considering an ES-150 of similar vintage, how'd you rate the acoustic tone of something like that compared to an L-50, for instance?

I know the top is laminated and understand the acoustic tone will be lacking in direct comparison, but does the ES-150 also have that recognizable Gibson thump and midrange? Albeit possibly a tad less so...

Thanks!

[ThatRhythmMan]

Hi ThatRhythmMan,

I just came across this video of yours:

First of all, what a room! Congratulations.

I wanted to ask, as I'm also considering an ES-150 of similar vintage, how'd you rate the acoustic tone of something like that compared to an L-50, for instance?

I know the top is laminated and understand the acoustic tone will be lacking in direct comparison, but does the ES-150 also have that recognizable Gibson thump and midrange? Albeit possibly a tad less so...

Thanks!

That’s the old, very cramped, but still wonderful space. You should see the newer spaces!

In short, no, an ES-150 like the one in that video will be pretty disappointing as an acoustic guitar compared to a full acoustic Gibson, even the L-50. The ES-150 will sound quite dead.


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[scout_3]

Humm, how about an L-48? An ES-150 would likely be more in line with that, I suppose...

I'm really not looking for an acoustic tone that's close to a Gibson jumbo, though. Just some body to the tone and that recognizable midrange thump Gibsons are known for.

even the L-50. The ES-150 will sound quite dead.

[petelet]

Remember that with an L-50 or L-48 the fingerboard extension is attached directly to the body of the guitar, not raised like some of the higher end archtops. That will limit your ability to place a pickup close to the neck unless it is very low profile. I ran into that problem with a Kent copy of a DeArmond monkey on a stick and couldn't get the pickup as close to the neck as I wanted, thus affecting the desired tone somewhat. This guy (About — Jazz guitar with Andy) solved that problem by installing a Charlie Christian repro pickup on his L-50 but that modification requires major surgery and would affect the acoustic tone significantly.

I have an ES-150 from the 1950s and while it sounds decent unplugged in terms of practice volume, it does not have the classic acoustic archtop tone; the P90 sounds amazing when plugged in though.

Good luck with your search. P

[ThatRhythmMan]

Remember that with an L-50 or L-48 the fingerboard extension is attached directly to the body of the guitar, not raised like some of the higher end archtops. That will limit your ability to place a pickup close to the neck unless it is very low profile. I ran into that problem with a Kent copy of a DeArmond monkey on a stick and couldn't get the pickup as close to the neck as I wanted, thus affecting the desired tone somewhat. This guy (About — Jazz guitar with Andy) solved that problem by installing a Charlie Christian repro pickup on his L-50 but that modification requires major surgery and would affect the acoustic tone significantly.

I have an ES-150 from the 1950s and while it sounds decent unplugged in terms of practice volume, it does not have the classic acoustic archtop tone; the P90 sounds amazing when plugged in though.

Good luck with your search. P

Most L-50s made 1935 and some immediately after have the cantilevered extension. They do cost more for that reason though.


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[petelet]

[QUOTE=ThatRhythmMan;1464081]Most L-50s made 1935 and some immediately after have the cantilevered extension. They do cost more for that reason though.


Thanks for that information, I did not know that! My L-50 is from 1938 or 1939 and does not have the cantilevered extension.

[scout_3]

Thanks Petelet,

indeed, I'm aware of that particular and the lengths people go to in order to have the CC installed. If I was going for an L-50 without the cantilever, I'd try to get Peter B. to build me a really flat CC floater, but I'm unsure if it's been done. But I suppose that's why people do stuff like this (a P90 to the middle of the body):



I'm actually considering saving this badly bastardized L-50 precisely because it has the P-90 and it's already in Europe, despite being absurdly overpriced considering what's going on there. I'd strip away the golden hardware and tuners and look for period correct replacements, but I do wonder how that P-90 will sound in that middle position, and whether it's "floating" or if it's drilled in with minimal invasion to the top. It's also an early 60s L-50, and despite knowing the specs didn't change much, I wonder if the "magic" will be there this late into production.

Thanks as well for the pointer regarding the ES150, that's very helpful.

Remember that with an L-50 or L-48 the fingerboard extension is attached directly to the body of the guitar, not raised like some of the higher end archtops. That will limit your ability to place a pickup close to the neck unless it is very low profile. I ran into that problem with a Kent copy of a DeArmond monkey on a stick and couldn't get the pickup as close to the neck as I wanted, thus affecting the desired tone somewhat. This guy (About — Jazz guitar with Andy) solved that problem by installing a Charlie Christian repro pickup on his L-50 but that modification requires major surgery and would affect the acoustic tone significantly.

I have an ES-150 from the 1950s and while it sounds decent unplugged in terms of practice volume, it does not have the classic acoustic archtop tone; the P90 sounds amazing when plugged in though.

Good luck with your search. P