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I had a conversation with Steve Holst about his tops compared to a vintage 175 (like my '64).
Hi Steve,
I ended up buying a 64 175 and am curious why it's so resonant. The only other Lam that is comparable is your d'aquisto inspired guitar that I've used for a couple albums.
Your guitar is more resonant than the 64, but also it's a single pickup, and I don't know how much that has to do with it.
But I've owned a bunch of different 175s from almost every decade, and it seems that as you get closer to modern Times they are less and less resonant, and I'm just curious if it's the bracing, the laminate itself, the glues, or what.
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Hi Jack,
All good questions! My feeling is that there's a few things in play. It's clear that the quality of wood in the early 175's was much better than what's available now. Whether that translates to the poplar core I don't know. I do believe they used that wood from the beginning but can't be positive. Poplar grows very fast so it's unclear whether newly harvested wood is vastly different from older stuff. I can more easily make the argument that the mahogany and rosewood used in the old days is much better than modern.
I could see where the glue may make a contribution although how much is a guess. Ideally you'd want a glue that dries hard like hide glue. Titebond dries more gummy than hard. No idea what Gibson used back then. Hide glue is a pain to work with but for a long time that was what everyone used.
I think the age of the wood may make a significant contribution. Some woods get quite a bit stiffer and harder over time. The fir studs in my first house (made in 1947) were like iron. Stiffer wood resonates more easily than soft, flabby wood. That was the main reason I chose to use hard maple for all my laminations. Old wood that's stiffened over time and is fairly dry can be very lively acoustically. In the making of my plates there's a lot of moisture introduced through the gluing of the layers together. I've noticed my plates improve over time as all that glue moisture slowly dries out. Might be something similar in the old 175's. Not sure.
Interesting topic for sure.
Steve
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05-04-2026 05:02 PM
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Thanks! Good discussion but not conclusive. The hardness of old hide glue is believed to be one of the explanations for why centuries-old violin-family instruments sound so good. And yes, wood ages. I don't think that all great tonewoods have been exhausted over the past few decades. I rather believe that modern instruments will also sound better with age. A -99 Emperor Regent by Samick is the resident guitar at my country home and gets very little air time. Yet, I could swear it keeps sounding better all the time. The same with a cedar-top Ibanez dreadnought that's about 20 years now.
OTOH, when I started playing around 1960, the view was that, contrary to violins, guitars (classical at least) have a finite lifespan, getting "tired" from overplaying.
My 2014 ES-175D 1959 VOS reissue was incredibly resonant, almost like an acoustic archtop, until it was discovered that both PUs vibrated freely. Some stuffing made all the difference. Lighter, the guitar is still quite acoustic for an ES. I was actually worried about a loose brace, although those probably resonate more sharply and/or around a particular frequency (as with a former ES-175 of mine.) The VOS, BTW, has kerfed bracing, which I think is cheating/corner-cutting, but apparently period-perfect in this case.
EDIT: Global warming no doubt changes the growing conditions of many tonewoods. Europe is warming up the fastest, but this allows Alpine spruce's timberlines and harvesting to advance to higher elevations. Common Eurasian pine (Pinus Sylvestris) is plentiful but needs thermotreating to extract excessive resin for a lighter, more stable and resonant tonewood. A lot of trial (and error) has taken place in Finland, where pine occupies half of the forested area and spruce grows too fast. Regrettably, Landola went belly-up before getting up to speed with thermotreated pine.Last edited by Gitterbug; 05-05-2026 at 03:24 AM.
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the 1989 175 has extremely resonant and didn't use hide glue. Gibson had switched to pva glue by 1964
Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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I've always found tops with a single pickup more resonant, and it makes sense; you have more material left on the top to resonate. With the old Gibson archtops, including the ES175, it's a hit or miss. I've played some that sounded stellar, with great resonance and body, and others that sounded dead. The same thing with pickups, during that era of the 60's, they used different magnets, sometimes what they had at hand, or what was left. I had some long talks in the past with Tom Holmes about this... If you play 4 different ES175's from the 60's, they will all sound a bit different, believe me, I've did it at Rudy's in NYC about 30+ years ago. The one thing Gibson has never gotten right about their builds, is consistency... Jack, your Holst sound better than any 175 I've ever heard!
Cheers,
Arnie..Last edited by arnie65; 05-05-2026 at 04:30 PM.
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It's always the wood!
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Is it the wood, the luthier or the player that makes a guitar sound great (we could also consider the strings, the pickup, the amp, the cable and the plectrum) ? Originally Posted by skiboyny
Barney Kessel once had an audience member tell him that his guitar sounded great. Barney put the guitar on his chair and stood up right next to the fellow and said "how does it sound now?"
IMO it is always the player.
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The player is certainly a large part of it, maybe the largest part as SS suggests.
My playing is not the greatest by any means, but for whatever reason I can get a good (jazz and bossa) sound on pretty much whatever guitar I play (not so much an overdriven or "rock" sound, though). I sound pretty much like me across different instruments. Hand that guitar to someone else and they sound like them, not me, even without adjusting any settings.
I think we've all experienced this. With clean electric or acoustic tone, you can't buy it- you've got to make it yourself. You can enhance your tone once you've got it with guitar selection, amps, etc., chasing that last 10%. At least that's what I tell myself and my wife about all those guitars and amps in the living room...
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I always thought it was Chet Atkins who said that. Maybe Chet stole it from Barney. Or Barney stole it from Chet. Or it's apocryphal. In any even' whenever someone complements the tone of my instrument, I always take it as a personal complement. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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I would bet it was Barney. He liked to say things like that. When Barney had his first stroke, while being admitted to the hospital, Barney was asked if he had any know allergies by the admitting nurse. Barney replied "Just Country and Western music". Originally Posted by FourOnSix
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This all may be true BUT, we are taking most of the elements out of the equation in that It's the same player along with the "assumed" same accessories. The pickups could always be wound a bit differently. If you take 6 guitars of the exact same model, even off the same production line, you will get 6 guitars with largely the same model personalities, however among them will be subtle differences, and you will find one more alive. I've had the good fortune of being able to buy multiple examples of the same model, and own them at the same time, I can say with certainty they always sound and feel a bit different. Some of that is neck carve but mostly it's the wood! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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That's interesting to think about because the actual glue in a violin (or similar instrument) is generally treated as replaceable when doing repairs or maintenance. Anytime you pull the top off a bass or violin you'll have to scrape away at least some of the old glue before using new hide glue to put things back together after making repairs. Are any well regarded centuries old violins out there that still retain a majority of their original hide glue? I have no idea. IME luthiers do usually mention the caveat that once an instrument is disassembled and reglued it will never sound exactly the same as it did... but will hopefully sound better! Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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The wood is always one factor among countless factors. Originally Posted by skiboyny
If the internet is accurate Gibson used PVA in the early 1950s. I've read about PVA blobs in the 'appendix channel' in a 1952 Les Paul. Originally Posted by jzucker
Spot on. Originally Posted by olejason
The top-level age-old masterwork violins -- the Stradivaris, the Guarneris, the Amatis -- each had their scrolls sawed-off and reattached to longer necks. No, I am not kidding. Beyond that they are each strung with higher-tension strings than they were built for, and tuned about half a step higher then they were built for. Although they were built by amazing crafter / artists to be the standout instruments of their day, the way they sound now is not what those builders intended. Their current sound is actually a very happy accident.
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So what type of glue does Holst use for his plates?
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titebond Originally Posted by DRS
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Too bad Steve Holst retired. Great guy, great builder, and fantastic prices.
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Holst seems to be still building on his Facebook page? Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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He made me a beautiful tailpiece not that many months ago when the original one on my AF207 broke. He sounded fine and vital when I spoke to him. When I said that I wish I had known about his great work before I bought all of my current guitars, he said he was available if I wanted to order one. So I don’t think he’s retired. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
?????
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Steve told me a month ago that he is retired from building guitars.
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Interesting! It’s a great loss. I couldn’t believe how nice he was, and how interested he was in helping a guitarist with a problem. He made me a tailpiece for a 28 year old Ibanez 7 string archtop that’s been out of production for 23 years - nonstandard sizes, nonstandard string spacing, nonstandard design and no plans or specs to go by. And he got it to me in less than 2 weeks! Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
When I saw his prices for guitars, I was floored. I’ve never played one, but I’ve heard nothing but praise for them. I can’t believe I didn’t know all this when I bought my Eastman archtops. He was probably even making them when I bought the Ibanez. We grow old too soon and smart too late
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Look on Holst's Facebook page,he just finished an archtop yesterday so he is still building them,maybe he meant he is not taking any new orders for one.
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I reached out to him a couple weeks ago about a build and he said he is retiring and not taking new orders. Originally Posted by nyc chaz
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Relevant PSA: Holst.
Bummer news, though - Steve and his guitars are great!
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Just checked in with him, too: he has eight more in the works, and that's it!
Hopefully he'll keep posting the finished pics on FB - I love looking/drooling!
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Just throwing it out there that poplar has been used for centuries to build the cases of harpsichords and other early keyboard instruments. I have read folks bash it online because it can be found in lower priced solid guitars but just because something is plentiful and affordable doesn't mean it can't be great for its intended use.
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