Comparing Thomastik-Infeld PLECTRUM strings with Philippe Bosset Soft Brass

[Rob MacKillop]

For those who like their acoustic archtop guitar to sound like a resonant acoustic archtop guitar, the following might be of interest.

My Eastman 910CE has a floating pickup, but I've never plugged it in, and always use it as an acoustic guitar. It is loud and articulate - a great guitar, I'd say.

My first instinct was to furnish it with my old favorites: the Philippe Bosset "Soft Brass" 80/20 set. The gauges are 12, 15, 24w, 34w, 44w, 54w. The result was what I expected: a beautifully warm yet clear and resonant sound. They are made in Paris, but available widely, and are not very expensive. The trebles are "reinforced plain steel".

But I'm struggling these days with high-tension strings. They do have lighter sets: 10-47 and 11-52 (and for the record there is also a 13-56 set). But I feared the lower-tension sets would not bring out the fullness of the guitar...so I ordered the following:

Thomastik-Infeld "Plectrum" AC112 acoustic set. Although the gauges for the first three strings are the same as the Bosset, the three basses are heavier, BUT, they have silk inlays which they claim give "easy playability". The gauges are:

12 - plain steel, brass plated
15 - ditto
24 - bronze flatwound
33 - bronze roundwound
44 - ditto
59 - ditto

The flatwound 3rd makes the transition between the treble and bass strings smoother than usual, and gives no squeak when sliding or when shifting without careful placement. The overall sound is not unlike that I got from the Bosset strings, despite being made from a different material. I assume the silk inlays help there, and also with the tension-feel of the basses. I just put them on today, so will report back if there are problems, but so far they seem good quality (what we expect from T-I). And I'll also mention whether they are helping my left-hand pressing problems. Generally the control is okay, but fairly often I'll inadvertently weaken the grip, resulting in a dead note or a buzz. The problem is most apparent in the basses, so I'm hoping the silk inlays will rectify that. If not, I'll have to step down a gauge, which will reduce the overall resonance - something I won't be happy about. Maybe in six months' time I will recover the strength I took for granted before.

[Mick-7]

For those who like their acoustic archtop guitar to sound like a resonant acoustic archtop guitar, the following might be of interest.

My Eastman 910CE has a floating pickup, but I've never plugged it in, and always use it as an acoustic guitar. It is loud and articulate - a great guitar, I'd say.

My first instinct was to furnish it with my old favorites: the Philippe Bosset "Soft Brass" 80/20 set. The gauges are 12, 15, 24w, 34w, 44w, 54w. The result was what I expected: a beautifully warm yet clear and resonant sound. They are made in Paris, but available widely, and are not very expensive. The trebles are "reinforced plain steel".

But I'm struggling these days with high-tension strings. They do have lighter sets: 10-47 and 11-52 (and for the record there is also a 13-56 set). But I feared the lower-tension sets would not bring out the fullness of the guitar...so I ordered the following:

Thomastik-Infeld "Plectrum" AC112 acoustic set. Although the gauges for the first three strings are the same as the Bosset, the three basses are heavier, BUT, they have silk inlays which they claim give "easy playability".

I see that the Thomastick strings are about 3 times the price of the Bosset. Perhaps there is not an appreciable difference in tone between the Bosset 12's & 11's? Worth a shot for the price.

[SierraTango]

As I posted in my "Rancher" thread. I just swapped out Martin Monels for TI Plectrums on that guitar. I can't speak to the Bosset vs. TI question, having never tried the Bosset product. I can only relate my experience lately.
I, too, have a strictly acoustic archtop, a 1953 Epiphone Triumph Regent-it has no pickup. I have always used 80/20 Bronze on that guitar and it was a perfect fit-outstanding tone and projection, exactly what I expect from a vintage archtop. Out of boredom I tried the Monels and they also sound very good, however they make the guitar sound more like a unplugged electric guitar with set in pickups.
On this new to me Rancher I installed Monels, and they did sound good but again more like a unplugged electric guitar. I swapped out for TI Plectrums and it brought the el cheapo Gretsch to another level both acoustically and plugged in. As a added bonus, the lower tension on the TI's made it much easier to play.
The Epi is going to get Plectrums on it's next change. I would hesitate to do this if the TI's wore out quickly, however the TI JS I use on my working guitar, a Benedetto Cremona usually last 6+ months.

[Rob MacKillop]

Good to hear from another TI-Plectrums user! And a positive review at that.

I've just played for 30 minutes, and like them a lot.

Price is not such an issue for me in that both are very expensive in the UK, so there is nothing to choose between them other than playability. Philippe Bosset does not have a UK distributor (thanks, yet again, Brexit voters!) so the price is akin to the TI-Plectrums. Hopefully they'll last at least six months.

Mick - I might yet try the Bosset 11-52 set...once I save up enough again!

[Mick-7]

The Bossets are $13 here, says they offer worldwide shipping but I don't know what their fees are: Philippe Bosset Acoustique 80/20 Brass Acoustic Guitar Strings 11-52

I just have a hard time spending $40 on a set of strings, and I realize there are strings that cost even more than that.

[Rob MacKillop]

That’s quite a difference in price! Not so different here, but not cheap either.

But compared to stringing a baroque lute in guitar strings (over £500) guitar strings are giveaways.

[Cunamara]

Yes, it's a good reminder to think about top-flight classical bass or cello strings compared to Tis. Didn't know about the cost of stringing a lute.

[Rob MacKillop]

Good-quality gut strings for lutes are expensive, and a 13-course lute has 24 strings. One thick bass string can cost the equivalent of two to three packets of Tis. The good news is that they will last for years. The trebles will need changing fairly frequently. Most players, though, use nylgut equivalents, but the sound is not the same.

Guitarists don’t know how lucky they are.

[Bill C]

I’m using Plectrum 11’s on my acoustic archtop. I’d like something a touch heavier, but this 11’s set has the G D and A with the “flat wound” finish rather than just the G as in the 12’s set, which didn’t work for me. I tried the Galli acoustic flat wounds but they are truly flat wound and I prefer the “semi-flat” feel of the Plectrums, so I may stick with the 11’s unless there’s anything comparable out there.

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks for the info, Bill. I didn't realize the 11s had the 'flat wound' finish on all three basses. Not sure I would want that.

[[email protected]]

Hey Rob, what do you mean high tension? Are heavier gage strings by definition high tension? I never head the high v regular tension distinction before?


QUOTE=Rob MacKillop;1460242]For those who like their acoustic archtop guitar to sound like a resonant acoustic archtop guitar, the following might be of interest.

My Eastman 910CE has a floating pickup, but I've never plugged it in, and always use it as an acoustic guitar. It is loud and articulate - a great guitar, I'd say.

My first instinct was to furnish it with my old favorites: the Philippe Bosset "Soft Brass" 80/20 set. The gauges are 12, 15, 24w, 34w, 44w, 54w. The result was what I expected: a beautifully warm yet clear and resonant sound. They are made in Paris, but available widely, and are not very expensive. The trebles are "reinforced plain steel".

But I'm struggling these days with high-tension strings. They do have lighter sets: 10-47 and 11-52 (and for the record there is also a 13-56 set). But I feared the lower-tension sets would not bring out the fullness of the guitar...so I ordered the following:

Thomastik-Infeld "Plectrum" AC112 acoustic set. Although the gauges for the first three strings are the same as the Bosset, the three basses are heavier, BUT, they have silk inlays which they claim give "easy playability". The gauges are:

12 - plain steel, brass plated
15 - ditto
24 - bronze flatwound
33 - bronze roundwound
44 - ditto
59 - ditto

The flatwound 3rd makes the transition between the treble and bass strings smoother than usual, and gives no squeak when sliding or when shifting without careful placement. The overall sound is not unlike that I got from the Bosset strings, despite being made from a different material. I assume the silk inlays help there, and also with the tension-feel of the basses. I just put them on today, so will report back if there are problems, but so far they seem good quality (what we expect from T-I). And I'll also mention whether they are helping my left-hand pressing problems. Generally the control is okay, but fairly often I'll inadvertently weaken the grip, resulting in a dead note or a buzz. The problem is most apparent in the basses, so I'm hoping the silk inlays will rectify that. If not, I'll have to step down a gauge, which will reduce the overall resonance - something I won't be happy about. Maybe in six months' time I will recover the strength I took for granted before.[/QUOTE]

[Rob MacKillop]

[[email protected];1460565]Are heavier gage strings by definition high tension? /QUOTE)

Good question. I was acquainting heavier gauge with higher tension, but that is not necessarily always the case.

[GuyBoden]

Are heavier gage strings by definition high tension?

Yes, but usually only when using the same string type and brand.
Guitar String Tension Calculator | String Tension Pro
– D'Addario

[[email protected]]

Thanks. What is the relevance of string tension?



QUOTE=GuyBoden;1460579]Are heavier gage strings by definition high tension?

Yes, but usually only when using the same string type and brand.
Guitar String Tension Calculator | String Tension Pro
– D'Addario
[/QUOTE]

[Cunamara]

Thanks. What is the relevance of string tension?

(FWIW, please stop deleting the [ in front of QUOTE when you're quoting someone's post.)

"Captain Janeway, rabbit hole dead ahead!"

With both nylon string and steel string guitars, string tension has an effect on feel, tone and volume.

Thicker strings will have higher tension when tuned to the same pitch. It is perhaps not obvious to look at a guitar string on a guitar and to understand that it is a spring, but that is an essential understanding. The wire diameter and the string tension result in an effective spring rate; with higher tension and/or thicker diameter, the spring rate is higher. If you take a plain G string and tune it down to E, you will immediately feel the difference. This is why we usually use heavier strings for lower notes and thinner strings for higher notes; this allows for pretty similar spring rates from one string to the next across the neck. Some manufacturers try to put together string sets that have almost identical spring rates across all the strings- although usually they're referring to the tension required to achieve pitch rather than the spring rate. That approach is probably easier for consumers to think about because it is directly intuitive.

Higher tension strings usually have a stronger fundamental note and less prominent overtones due to the physics of string vibration- the higher tension/stiffer string reduces how widely the string will move as it vibrates. Lower tension strings allow the overtones to be relatively louder compared to the fundamental because they are free to vibrate, usually referred to as "twang" or "sparkle." This also becomes noticeable when playing higher up the neck because effectively the string is being shortened with each fret up, but because the diameter is not changing the string becomes effectively stiffer and overtones are increasingly limited. The effect is very noticeable with thicker plain strings, like a .020 which becomes more and more "choked" as it is fretted further up the neck compared to a .010.

When we talk about wound strings, we kind of tend to treat them as if they function the same as a plain string but they don't; a .050 plain string would sound very different than a .050 wound string and would be much stiffer. The stiffness of a wound string is largely determined by the diameter of the core wire, although this is also dependent on construction technique. Round core versus hex core is going to function a little differently and flatwound versus roundwound strings as well. I haven't really visualized about this before, but I suspect that a round core versus hex core string with the same wrapping would have a difference in stiffness and in tone. With a hex core, the wrapping wire is crimped around the core's contact points which would change the vibrating characteristics. If you consider a cross-section of the wrapping wire for roundwound versus flatwound strings, you can readily see why the latter would have different vibrating characteristics.

Higher tension strings feel stiffer under the fingers (e.g., resistance to bending or fretting) but because they oscillate in a smaller volume of space the action of higher tension strings can usually be lower before buzzing. That can make higher tension strings easier to play than lower tension strings. My archtop with .012s is just as easy to play as my solidbody with .011s, because the action on the former can be about 1/64 lower without buzzing. .010s don't have enough resistance for my tastes, so I don't use them. But who knows, as I get older I may find switching to them to be a necessity in order to keep playing. Other forum members have described this happening with them. On my nylon strings I have gone to low tension compared to the medium tension I used to use.

Sustain is usually longer with lower tension strings than with higher tension strings of otherwise identical construction. The heavier gauge string is stiffer and so has a higher spring rate and the vibrations of the string stop sooner. Let's get a little absurd as a thought experiment. Consider a 1 foot long string clamped at one end. It's a lot easier to get a .010" wire to vibrate than a 1" wire, and the .010 will vibrate a lot longer.

Higher tension strings usually drive the top of the guitar more and result in greater volume. This is something of greater salience to acoustic players than amplified players. People who play acoustic rhythm guitar in a swing band tend to like really heavy strings so that they can be louder. Bluegrass players often prefer heavy gauge strings for similar reasons. Gypsy jazz guitarists, on the other hand, use lightly built guitars with light gauge steel strings; the lighter construction of the guitars allows for this and to still get good volume. The tone is quite different, however. Electric guitar players can just turn the volume knob up and don't have a need for heavier strings to gain volume. Hewever, often because of the tradition of the archtop guitar and for tonal reasons, electric archtop jazz guitaist often prefer heavy gauge strings also.

It's kind of a gloomy day here and I'm taking a break from painting trim on my house; can you tell I was looking for a diversion? What a rabbit hole to go down! Sorry, Rob.

[Rob MacKillop]

No problem. It’s good for a change to read a post from someone who knows what they are talking about.

[garybaldy]

To calculate the tension (T) of a string for a given frequency (f), use the formula

T=4mL²f², where L is the length of the string and m is the linear mass density (mass per unit length).
ps I looked this up but I did cover it at university in the 70s when I studied Civil and Structural Engineering. All forgotten now!

[JazzPadd]

I use the TI Plectrum 11-50 set on my flattop and love them. I might give them a try on the archtop when the TI Jazz Swing need a change, but they seem to last a long time.

I'm intrigued by the Phillip Bosset Soft Brass, but they seem unavailable here.

In any case, thank you for the interesting comparison!

[gitman]

I snapped up that nice ELFERINK "Excalibur" that was posted here this spring and after some trial and error I now settled in with a set of D'Addario "Flat Tops" bronze strings 0.13-0.56. The strings are half-round so they are ground AFTER the bronze wire is wrapped around the core. This makes for a VERY smooth surface but they still have enough zing to them as not to sound dull like so many flat wound strings do when they are a couple of weeks old. This Elferink guitar (17" full solid/hollowbody, no cutaway) has a rather bright tone even though it is X-braced but the half-round strings tame this brilliance just enough to balance it out. The sustain, the strong fundamental tone and the fast response of this guitar make it my favourite acoustic guitar at the moment and I enjoy it's sound very much whether played with a pick or with nails. My old 1957 Gibson L5C was a nice guitar but re volume, depth and resonance this rather new (2021) instrument has more on tap.

Two more arguments on behalf of these half-round strings :
- they last longer /lose their definition later since the smooth surface stays clean and
- the reduced finger noise make them ideal for close-up recording when played in quiet settings.

[Rob MacKillop]

Glad to hear you got the Elf, Gitman, even more so that you rate it so highly! The strings sound intriguing too. I wish you all many happy hours of enjoyable exploration together!