Eastman vs Gibson - Is the tone gap as small as the price gap (audio comp'n)?

[nyc chaz]

[QUOTE=SierraTango;1450677]This is how I understood the Eastman system of numbering. The 910 is/was the top of the heap all carved with all the best solid woods and appointments. The 8 series just cosmetically less bling. The Pisano 6 series is solid carved spruce and mahogany. 4 series laminated.
Back in the late 90's I ordered a 7 string Eastman. Sadly it was absolutely the worst guitar I ever played-I could slide a credit card between the heel and the body. The finish was terrible and the electronics were a bad joke. A guy named Gordon was the US rep, Eastman was just starting out with archtop guitars. He refunded the purchase and I bought a Ibanez AF207, which was a stellar 7. Just ask Never.
I went back to 6 string and bought a Gibson Howard Roberts and giged with it for a few years. I had heard through the grapevine that Eastman hired Mark Lacey (RIP) to consult and watched the brand improve at NAMM shows. I was at NAMM around 2005 when they brought out the PIsano 880.
I was very impressed with it and got mine through my friend Bob November (also RIP)
Another story however when the recession hit in '07, that guitar kept food on the table gigging, a workhorse. Now days she's my backup for the Benedetto but I still love it.

Attachment 129767[/QUOT
I thought Eastman didn't start producing archtops until 2002.Are you sure it was the 90's you ordered a 7 string?Irregardless,those early Eastmans were very hit and miss,you had an equal chance of getting either a gem or a dog.In the past decade Eastman has really nailed it with most of the guitars i have played being good to great.

[buduranus2]

Both great rides! I'm still riding at 70, no plans to stop. I hit a cow on my Ducati 900SS/SP a couple years ago, but got right back on after surgery.
I'm a Italian bike guy. I sold my Ducati 999S last Autumn and went back to Guzzi. The Ducati was so intense, so focused it just wanted to faster. Also very uncomfortable, hot in the summer. My current ride a 02 Guzzi V11 Le Mans. Much more relaxed!

As I've told my wife, if I'd been riding all along it would be a different story. But at 75, and after two spine surgeries, maybe not the best idea.

Speaking of Moto Guzzi: One night a gazillion years ago I was out riding with a friend, who had a Moto Guzzi T3 with every imaginable option and add-on. I could barely get it off the side-stand. By the time I did he couldn't stop laughing.

[213Cobra]

I have a Legrand and it sounds wonderful made as an acoustic and Gibson did a fantastic job. That said I can also tell you I have played a number of Eastman 810s and 910s which are acoustic guitars. On the whole they have nothing at all to be ashamed of sound wise. I have never done a side-by-side comparison but I can tell you for the most part Eastman acoustic archtop do a fine job. One might in a blind fold test pick them over a Legrand. That might a cool project.

In the end sound is important for sure but it does not determine the value that is goes much deeper in a process. If you are like Rob and want a fine carved top sound but not willing or able to shell out $10k for a Legrand, Eastman works fine. What also becomes another rabbit hole is comparing lesser models Gibsons of the same type guitar. I have played many L7s that sound great and better than any particular L5 or even Super 400. I actually find Eastman very good value however before I would go to an Eastman I would look at Heritage. Oh my I found another rabbit hole.

As I wrote in a prior post, I had Eastman 910 and 804 Acoustic archtops for 13 years, alongside Guild-Benedetto AA, JSA and a '94 Guild AA from Westerly. I still have the Guilds. I presently also have five Gibson archtops that were expressly carved as acoustics: 1944 L7, 2001 Custom L-5CT Acoustic, a '94 Legrand, 2018 Crimson 1939 Super 400 Reissue (X-braced) and a 1994 Custom 1939 Super 400 Reissue (parallel braced). All originated from Gibson without pickups. The L-5CT Acoustic came to me with a DeArmond floater added sometime after the guitar was made.

The Eastmans were in the same tone family as my Guild-Benedetto 2006 JSA and 1999 AA, distinctly different sound from the acoustic Super 400s and L-5CT Acoustic. My Eastmans were made in late 2010. Qualitatively in terms of workmanship and build, they were on par with the G-Bs and the Guild AA, but cost much less when I bought the 910 and 804 in January 2011. The Eastmans were clearly from the Bob Benedetto school of design and construction but with wood bindings, and cosmetically less ornamented than the Guilds. Very light, sonorous and sonically projecting. The 910 was a little brighter than my 2006 G-B JSA, but the 804 was kind of its own thing. A "mellow" Benedetto. Necks were great. I liked the 1.75" nut width. Fretwork was impeccable. Inside, those Eastmans were clean!

The '94 Gibson Legrand is a Gibby outlier. As much as Super 400s sound different from an acoustic L-5CT or the much older L-7, the Legrand -- at least mine -- ventures far closer to the Benedetto-family sound. It has none of the shaded darkness of the mainstream Gibson carves. It's much closer to my G-B JSA sound and feel than to any other Gibson archtop I have, which makes sense as it is the successor to the Gibson JS. I've never played a Gibson JS, so I can't say whether the Legrand is a further departure from its predecessor, but it has that clean, clear, resonant wideband Johnny Smith sound that G-B captured. One other Gibson I have that was carved as an acoustic is the Super 4000, done for Chet Atkins, which has a big, fat, full-size floating humbucker made to Chet's preferences. I've had it for 15 years now. Acoustically, it also leans more Benedetto than old school Gibson, and capable of startling volume.

So, coming back to the acoustic Eastmans I owned, all these Benedetto-influenced or Benedetto-leaning (intentional or inadvertent on Gibson's part with the Legrand) share exceptional touch responsiveness, ring and chime to beat the band, and acoustic dynamic range that brings you up short when you first put your fingers to them.

So, since the time I became familiar with Eastman acoustic archtops in 2009 and then owned two, I never regarded my Eastmans as a step-down. They were made in part by violin crafters, in China by an element of Chinese craft culture labor who were not playing second fiddle, at least not by 2010. Notwithstanding Eastman's earlier teething years, they quickly matured into competitive guitar builders. My Eastmans were valued for their own voices, and the feel of their resonance when playing them. They just happened to be much more affordable, which is why I bought two, at the time. Today, if a 910 costs $4800 at retail street price, I'd have no qualms with that, and you can get an 800 series for less. Now, how the market perceives the Eastman brand value is a different matter, so value retention if you have to sell is not yet the same has having a Gibson, but that's not because the guitars aren't in the same realm.

Heritage, I have only cursory experience with, in hand. In the end, I am glad I own a Legrand and a G-B JSA, but if I had to have only one acoustic archtop, a 910 would more than suffice on its merits alone.

Phil

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I thought Eastman didn't start producing archtops until 2002.Are you sure it was the 90's you ordered a 7 string?Irregardless,those early Eastmans were very hit and miss,you had an equal chance of getting either a gem or a dog.In the past decade Eastman has really nailed it with most of the guitars i have played being good to great.

I don't think Eastman made archtops before '02. Even if they made some in the '90s before starting general production and distribution, I don't think they were available in the US. The reason I bought my AF207 when they came out in '97 was that there were no production 7 string archtops available at the time. I wasn't about to sell my 6 string archtops and pop $5k+ for a luthier-built one before knowing for sure that I'd be playing 7s for the rest of my life.

I had 2 solid body 7s (ESP and an early Epi LP7) at the time that got me started. But I really needed an archtop for my jazz gigs. If there had been an Eastman 7 in the mid '90s, I'd have bought one.

Yes, indeed - the AF207 is a stellar 7. It's not the richest sounding acoustic, but amplified it's excellent. I love it more today than I did in '97.

[Rob MacKillop]

Phil, I found your post interesting and educational, for me at least. All the guitars are different, all high quality.

Interesting you noticed a difference between the 804 and the 910. I like the look of the 804, and might get one someday, though the high-level Pisano seems more of a draw at the moment. A moot point, as I have no spare cash.

[m_d]

Does anyone know the difference between the Eastman 6xx series and the 8xx series? I thought the higher the number, the higher the quality, but I’m not sure where my AR371 (The 175-ish clone) fits in to this, as it seemed high quality.

Both series had spruce tops, but the 6xx was solid mahogany and the 8xx solid maple. Specifically, as I remember, the 6xx series were called the Jim Fisch series. Fisch was an educator or a luthier, I believe, who thought out that line to make solid archtops more accessible.

Here's my 604CE from 2008:

[Rob MacKillop]

M-d, your post triggered something in my brain. One of the side effects of my illness is forgetting some very obvious things, in this case that I already have an 804 in a box in my cupboard! Here it is:



I can’t believe I forgot I had it. This thing gets me down sometimes So I bought the 910, thinking I didn’t have an acoustic archtop…unbelievable! I must chat to my GP about my med levels!

Moving On…I notice a different sound between the 804 and 910. The 804 is mellower, the 910 richer. Their necks are different too - I find the 910 easier on my hand. If I had to chose between the two, I’d opt for the 910. But both are excellent. The serial number on mine is UK002 - the second one into the UK, dated 2006. I might try to part-exchange it for a Pisano.

Wait ‘till my wife hears about this!

[m_d]

The wood behind the soundhole is definitely clearer on yours - yep, that's maple! On mine it is a typical mahogany reddish brown as you would expect. I love that guitar, though I should play it more.

[Rob MacKillop]

Yes, definitely maple.

I have the best wife in the world: “Just keep both”.

[213Cobra]

Phil, I found your post interesting and educational, for me at least. All the guitars are different, all high quality.

Interesting you noticed a difference between the 804 and the 910. I like the look of the 804, and might get one someday, though the high-level Pisano seems more of a draw at the moment. A moot point, as I have no spare cash.

Rob,

I see now that you are able to hear and feel the difference between the 804 and 910 yourself. My 2010 804 was non-cutaway. For all the time I owned that pair of Eastmans, I lived in a neighborhood in the hills in L.A. above the San Fernando Valley, with undulating topography. The rear third of my property was a slope that at its base dropped down about 75 feet to the adjacent neighbor's property. I used to sometimes play guitar outside on my back deck. The neighbor's back deck and pool below was about 250 feet to the east of me and he was also a guitar player. We got together occasionally for whisky & guitars, so he was familiar with my collection of instruments. Sometimes when I played outside, I'd get a text from him: "Guild Jumbo flattop today?" "Sounds like the Martin D-93." "Artist Award, right?" And with high reliability, "Sounds like the Eastman f-hole." "Sounds like the Eastman oval-hole, today." He didn't always get it right, but whenever he chose, from 250 feet away with the bowl-like effect of my hillside, he got the guitar ID right about 80% of his tries.

You have two fine Eastmans, there, which are their own kind of therapy just having them to get your fingers busy.

Phil

[Rob MacKillop]

Great story, Phil. The landscape and housing-scape (!) seem to be perfect for music sharing. I’m not sure I could guess those guitars very accurately at that distance.

Yes, music playing can be very therapeutic, when not frustrating. I’m happy to be playing again. I managed to very slowly read through some Bach from my own Mel Bay edition, which was kind of cool. I love Bach on an archtop.

Apologies to Dave for the thread drift!

[buduranus2]

They were made in part by violin crafters...who were not playing second fiddle.

You meant this as a pun, didn't you?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Notwithstanding Eastman's earlier teething years, they quickly matured into competitive guitar builders. My Eastmans were valued for their own voices, and the feel of their resonance when playing them. They just happened to be much more affordable, which is why I bought two, at the time. Today, if a 910 costs $4800 at retail street price, I'd have no qualms with that, and you can get an 800 series for less. Now, how the market perceives the Eastman brand value is a different matter, so value retention if you have to sell is not yet the same has having a Gibson, but that's not because the guitars aren't in the same realm.

Heritage, I have only cursory experience with, in hand. In the end, I am glad I own a Legrand and a G-B JSA, but if I had to have only one acoustic archtop, a 910 would more than suffice on its merits alone.

Phil

Thanks a lot for such an eloquent answer to the question I posed, Phil. I agree completely and hope enough others feel that way (and buy them) to keep carved Eastman archtops in the US market as alternatives to old Gibsons etc, especially for gigging guitarists.

As I said earlier, the success and viability of our own independent luthiers in the US is important to me. I would rather see them prevail and Eastman exit our market if demand won’t support both. But I’m hopeful that they can coexist. Those of us who want a custom guitar with specific and personal features can commission one from the luthier of their choice and get a work of art they can love. Those who need a fine tool for making music but want a readily available (and replaceable) item with a strong support system and don’t want to wait a year+ for it have Eastman.

No, they’re not playing second fiddle. And it’s time they came forward and took a bow

PS: I’m not just idly speculating. We’ve already lost one of their product lines - Eastman no longer makes 7 string guitars of any kind. They were the only source of fine, affordable 7s for almost 20 years. The explanations for dropping them included insufficient supplies of good wood and skilled labor, but these problems don’t seem to be affecting their 6 string archtops. You never miss the water ‘til the well runs dry.

[Ukena]

Thanks a lot for such an eloquent answer to the question I posed, Phil. I agree completely and hope enough others feel that way (and buy them) to keep carved Eastman archtops in the US market as alternatives to old Gibsons etc, especially for gigging guitarists.

As I said earlier, the success and viability of our own independent luthiers in the US is important to me. I would rather see them prevail and Eastman exit our market if demand won’t support both. But I’m hopeful that they can coexist. Those of us who want a custom guitar with specific and personal features can commission one from the luthier of their choice and get a work of art they can love. Those who need a fine tool for making music but want a readily available (and replaceable) item with a strong support system and don’t want to wait a year+ for it have Eastman.

No, they’re not playing second fiddle. And it’s time they came forward and took a bow

PS: I’m not just idly speculating. We’ve already lost one of their product lines - Eastman no longer makes 7 string guitars of any kind. They were the only source of fine, affordable 7s for almost 20 years. The explanations for dropping them included insufficient supplies of good wood and skilled labor, but these problems don’t seem to be affecting their 6 string archtops. You never miss the water ‘til the well runs dry.

nevershoud, I'm sorry to hear about Eastman's decision to no longer make 7 string guitars. I recognize that 7's are an area of special interest for you.

My first arch top guitar was an Eastman AR905CE CC that I bought as an affordable entry into a world in which I wasn't sure I would remain. That's why I didn't purchase the used $7k Trenier, a decision I regret somewhat. But the Eastman I bought was a gateway into a fabulous world which I am glad to inhabit. Along the way I bought a second AR905CE CC that I gifted to a young prodigy, an Eastman PG2, and two Triggs archtops. The Eastmans are now beloved – as are the Triggses.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

As I said earlier, the success and viability of our own independent luthiers in the US is important to me. I would rather see them prevail and Eastman exit our market if demand won’t support both. But I’m hopeful that they can coexist.

Every country in the world is having the same problem to compete with China products, they are not only cheap (some say are subsidized and doing dumping) but they are getting better and better. Till the point it is perfectly enough and at half the price.
Here in Argentina industries are closing and economy is getting more primarized (we export the raw materials for others to add the value to them).
We begin importing what we were producing here, obviously at a cheaper price and creating lots of jobs (in asia).
Is clear that if you see this forum and its topics: Eastman guitars are seen all the time.
Why Gibson cant produce and sell a new L-5 for less than 12.000 dollars is a thing i dont really understand.
Why the quality control on the ES-275 was that low at a price of almost 4000 dollars is also a mistery.


Well, to let you know the perspective from musician living in south america: our average salarys (the whole economy, not musicians which are far poorer) here dont exceed 1000 dollars a month, and gigs are not paid anymore as they were, basically you rent the bar bring your friends and play for them and charge them the entrance ticket which you share with the live house. The idea that someone hires you in its live house and the audience comes by itself is a delusion and Jazz here is not very popular (of course if you are in a famous other style of music group things are different). Nevertheless talent is not scarce and people plays the guitar at the highest level in south america (in other styles of music and other kind of guitars, specially the spanish guitar).

Also in here buying a guitar from a luthier has a extremely low resell value, even when we know that the known luthiers can produce a far better product than Gibson, it doesnt make sense as an investment too.

Just my POV

[Rob MacKillop]

Benson, Metheny, Scofield, Pisano - some of the greatest jazz guitarists in the last half century, don’t just play Asian guitars because they are paid to, but because the guitars are great. Gibson can still make great guitars, but (as far as I can see) don’t want to fully engage with the jazz community. The sole luthiers can make great guitars too, some with long waiting lists, some not so lucky.

Jazz used to be 95% American, but now is played all over the world. Gibson dropped the ball, lowered their engagement. Had they fully engaged with the emerging global jazz community, things might have worked out differently.

There are also great jazz guitar luthiers/companies in Europe too, over many decades, some making very high-quality instruments. From a European perspective, we have been playing jazz from the early banjo days, it’s not a new thing here. This forum was created in Belgium. From a global perspective, jazz is now a global thing, and it’s only natural that some Americans feel awkward about that, and feel that it’s American-made music and should be played on American-made guitars. I understand that. But politics is very volatile at the moment. For the first time in my 66 years of life it seems Europe is seen as an enemy of the US. It’s unbelievably alarming, and deeply sad.

This forum - despite the inevitable bust ups every now and then - is a beacon of global love for and engagement in jazz, and long may it live and grow. I’ve just searched for archtop guitars on the Gibson USA website, and only found thinline guitars - if they still make bigger, more traditional archtops, they are hard to find. From a global perspective, the exciting developments in jazz guitars is happening outside of the US. I think that is sad, but it’s not the fault of individual players across the globe.

Oh dear, that turned into a rant. Apologies!!

[kris]

Benson, Metheny, Scofield, Pisano - some of the greatest jazz guitarists in the last half century, don’t just play Asian guitars because they are paid to, but because the guitars are great. Gibson can still make great guitars, but (as far as I can see) don’t want to fully engage with the jazz community. The sole luthiers can make great guitars too, some with long waiting lists, some not so lucky.

Jazz used to be 95% American, but now is played all over the world. Gibson dropped the ball, lowered their engagement. Had they fully engaged with the emerging global jazz community, things might have worked out differently.

There are also great jazz guitar luthiers/companies in Europe too, over many decades, some making very high-quality instruments. From a European perspective, we have been playing jazz from the early banjo days, it’s not a new thing here. This forum was created in Belgium. From a global perspective, jazz is now a global thing, and it’s only natural that some Americans feel awkward about that, and feel that it’s American-made music and should be played on American-made guitars. I understand that. But politics is very volatile at the moment. For the first time in my 66 years of life it seems Europe is seen as an enemy of the US. It’s unbelievably alarming, and deeply sad.

This forum - despite the inevitable bust ups every now and then - is a beacon of global love for and engagement in jazz, and long may it live and grow. I’ve just searched for archtop guitars on the Gibson USA website, and only found thinline guitars - if they still make bigger, more traditional archtops, they are hard to find. From a global perspective, the exciting developments in jazz guitars is happening outside of the US. I think that is sad, but it’s not the fault of individual players across the globe.

Oh dear, that turned into a rant. Apologies!!

The whole problem is that jazz music is not an art for everyone.
Today's world is becoming more and more global.
No one is going to invest in jazz guitar factories – that"s probably understandable.
Luthiers in Europe often learn on old guitars from the USA.
Aged Gibsons and Fenders are a model for them in the construction of their instruments and sounds.
ps.
John Scofield received his first Ibanez As-200 as a gift from a Japanese manufacturer.

[m_d]

For the first time in my 66 years of life it seems Europe is seen as an enemy of the US. It’s unbelievably alarming, and deeply sad.

I would counter that the reverse is sadly true as well - the US being seen as an enemy of Europe. Not wishing to politicize that thread in any way - I'll just say I believe that crisis to be a necessary one.

[213Cobra]

Benson, Metheny, Scofield, Pisano - some of the greatest jazz guitarists in the last half century, don’t just play Asian guitars because they are paid to, but because the guitars are great. Gibson can still make great guitars, but (as far as I can see) don’t want to fully engage with the jazz community. The sole luthiers can make great guitars too, some with long waiting lists, some not so lucky.

Jazz used to be 95% American, but now is played all over the world. Gibson dropped the ball, lowered their engagement. Had they fully engaged with the emerging global jazz community, things might have worked out differently.

There are also great jazz guitar luthiers/companies in Europe too, over many decades, some making very high-quality instruments. From a European perspective, we have been playing jazz from the early banjo days, it’s not a new thing here. This forum was created in Belgium. From a global perspective, jazz is now a global thing, and it’s only natural that some Americans feel awkward about that, and feel that it’s American-made music and should be played on American-made guitars. I understand that. But politics is very volatile at the moment. For the first time in my 66 years of life it seems Europe is seen as an enemy of the US. It’s unbelievably alarming, and deeply sad.

This forum - despite the inevitable bust ups every now and then - is a beacon of global love for and engagement in jazz, and long may it live and grow. I’ve just searched for archtop guitars on the Gibson USA website, and only found thinline guitars - if they still make bigger, more traditional archtops, they are hard to find. From a global perspective, the exciting developments in jazz guitars is happening outside of the US. I think that is sad, but it’s not the fault of individual players across the globe.

Oh dear, that turned into a rant. Apologies!!

American Jazz had black, Scottish, English, French, eastern European influences melded in our late 19th century and 20th century immigrant and former slave-descendent cultures. Jazz is perhaps a United States idiom but it has long belonged to the world, especially given that some of the prime musicians had to find refuge in Europe at intervals to grow audiences and thrive, blues included. Americans (I'm one) should be proud of what our domestic-minority and immigrant melding pot produced, culturally, but we should not be proud that much of our local talent had to find international refuge to circle back for later domestic recognition.

Right now, in the USA, our archtop legacy is being forwarded by individual luthiers and by Eastman, international access to ATC and Ibanez, as well as asian production of US brands like Epiphone, Guild, Gretsch, etc. We have Heritage and lone-practice luthiers holding the fort, unless Gibson gets serious later this year.

Eastman has its US presence and some product development here resulting in the Paisano, the VIgnola, the D'Ambrosio and the Pagelli. The culture for jazz-oriented archtops isn't dead here, but it's not in robust health, either. As '60s blues players watched their audiences wither here in the US only to be then invigorated in Europe and returned in British Invasion rock, we have a history of needing non-American cultures to slap us in the face with realization that we should appreciate what we once had but that had dwindled interest in. It's a penalty of a culture never slowing its march toward a "new sunshiny day." We have this juggernaut quality of moving inexorably "forward" before considering intent or direction.

Our best jazz played on Asian or any other-origin instruments still sounds like our best jazz. Focus on expression. If American instruments prevail it will be on the merits and by the economics. If US makers don't prevail, it will be on disfavorable economics enabling international makers to fill the breach. Which is to say, if US made jazz instruments become scarce, it's our fault, not that of makers who fill the gap.

Phil

[213Cobra]

>> For the first time in my 66 years of life it seems Europe is seen as an enemy of the US. It’s unbelievably alarming, and deeply sad. <<

Europe-as-enemy is not a popularly-shared sentiment here (USA). It is an element of our (unfortunate) politics of the moment, but it is temporally restricted and will correct with time.

Phil

[kris]

I wouldn"t use the word enemy.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

We must remember too that a music that starts somewhere might continue somewhere else nowadays. The case of Rock music is clear, started in USA but the most famous rock band are British.

Also is not that archtop guitar is a new concept on its own, it is just applying the principle by which europe been crafting bowed strings instruments for hundreds of years to the guitar.

[Rob MacKillop]

The Borgias at play, Italy early 16th century. There were also 19th century archtop classical guitars in Europe. But there’s no question that the Americans developed it new ways, creating some magnificent instruments and music for it. I just see us all as part of a wonderfully interesting journey together - not a view that everyone is happy with these days. C’est la vie.

[Stringswinger]

America and Western Europe are not enemies. Friends have arguments from time to time and if the bond is deep, the friendship remains. America and Britain have had some pretty big arguments in the past (1776 and 1812 come to mind), but we have a shared history and culture, and I predict the bond between the two Nations shall endure.

While jazz and the archtop guitar were born in America, both belong to the world. Jazz had strong influences from American members of persecuted minorities (Armstrong, Parker, Goodman and Shaw all come to mind) and a European from a persecuted minority, Django Reinhardt made a giant contribution in the early days of Jazz as well. And if improvisational music is the backbone of jazz, let's include Bach as a founding member to some small degree.

Things are not always what we think. Here is a personal anecdote:

In 1989, I made my first trip to Europe. I shipped a Harley-Davidson Motorcycle to the Netherlands, and I had to wait about a week in Rotterdam to get the bike out of customs. One day, I was taking my daily walk, and I heard some jazz being played in the distance, so I walked in the direction of the music. As I got closer, I heard the music being played at a very high level. In my mind I started to picture a group of older Black musicians who were perhaps refugees from the racist policies of pre-1960's America. But when I reached the bandstand in a City park, what I found was a group of Dutch teenagers, all very White (and very tall). Listening to them was a treat. Touring Western Europe on a motorcycle was a blast, though as the weather got colder, I eventually sold the bike in France and purchased a car in Germany. I drove that car into the Communist East bloc and also into North Africa, completing a six-month adventure. Being alone, I met many people from different cultures than mine and in 1989, English was not quite as widely spoken, so I got to hone my communication skills. But back then, those Dutch teenagers showed me that above all else, Jazz is America's gift to the world.

[Sigmund451]

Im not gonna get into it becuase its a guitar fourm. The EU and the US are not enemies. There is only really one person who is painting it that way for political gain. Being from the US and knowing plenty of people in the EU its pretty safe to say that the majority of the public are not involved in this game of name calling. Hate is a powerful politica tool.