Warm and dark sound a la Hall, Monder, Rogers

[GuyBoden]

the solution to "I want more mids" is often to turn bass and treble down rather than mids up, if that makes sense

Or, Bass and Treble down, then Mid to your liking.

It's all in Christian's very good video:

[jcbgtr]

Yeah, I watched Christian’s video and am now running those exact settings, also mimicked on my EQ pedal. The sound (with my 335) is somewhere between Ben Monder’s tone on his first album “Flux” and Kurt’s tone on East Coast Love Affair. So, yes, close to two pretty good sounds. I think a lot of my issues, especially on gigs, are coming from pick attack and other things.

I’ve definitely noticed the stuff you all are describing in regards to the tone controls on the Blues Deluxe, and I do think it’s played a big part in my feelings regarding my live tone. I’ve certainly considered selling it or trading but I just don’t know what I’d replace it with. I mostly play jazz nowadays but I also have the occasional blues, rock, or RnB gig so something that’s still versatile but can get me more in the ballpark with this jazz tone I’m after. Deluxe reverb? Twin?

With my 175 the tone is closer to Bernstein/Van Ruller (again, two great sounds, so why am I bitching about so much other stuff? Or I could find MY OWN sound…)

[JCat]

there is no secret recipe, just an infinite number of amp settings (yes, it may take some time to explore a tube amp with a passive tone stack). I've got a few amps and they could be very, very different. Some are bass heavy, some are mid focused, some are bright by nature and settings will differ a lot. Some amps got alternative Input jacks for a reason. Some guitars are more sensitive than others, then the combination of gear and settings become critical.

• Spanking new chromes flatwounds are very bright compared to worn in chromes.
• A 2x12 cab is much more bass heavy than a 1x12 open back.
• Alnico 5 pickups got more bass and more treble than Alnico 2
• A long instrument cable is much darker than a short cable
• All amps are volume dependent; meaning that tone depends on volume settings of the amp as well as the guitar.
• Most guitar volume knobs roll off treble, going from low volume mud to high volume ice, with a sweet spot somewhere in-between.
• Poor intonation and a guitar out of tune sounds bad regardless of amp setting.

Maybe you came across one of those YT videos explaining how to get a good tone from any amp? My favorite gear is reasonably predictable, meaning that the control knobs work like I anticipate, so that I'm in control of my tone. If a piece of gear doesn't work according to my intuition, it either suggests that I would have to spend more time with it... or get rid of it, "Life is too short for bad gear", they say. Question is if I should blame the gear or myself...

Tip: Some amps can be set with all knobs on 12 o'clock as a starting point. Other amps got a neutral sound when you turn everything off, just open up the volume and add some treble...There's no universal recipe, not even when it's a Fender amp, because they are not the same (different circuits, different speakers). Set the amp by ear, not by eye.

[bluejaybill]

Maybe a solution is to keep your Blues Deluxe for your rockier/bluesier gigs, and find a different amp for your jazz gigs? Assuming of course that they are not the same gig.

For that I would probably look at the various solid state amps on the market. I really like the DV Mark Little Jazz for jazz playing, and I only have one tube amp (out of 4) that I like as much, and it's a custom made amp that mixes various eras of Fender tones (a Fat Jimmy).

Notably, I prefer both amps to my '66 Deluxe Reverb for jazz. I think to find a great jazz sound in tube amps, you need to go bigger, or some boutique version.

Additionally, tube amps have to be in a perfect gain range for optimal tones, and solid state amps tend to have a wider volume range. I'm not gigging much right now, but for jazz gig I would probably bring both the LJ and the Fat Jimmy, they sound really complementary together and can get quite loud.

I think it's kind of weird that an EQ pedal down's get you closer, I find a good EQ can fix a lot of ills in this department. Maybe a look at your technique as you said could help, like playing nearer to the neck pickup?

[MiniMerckx.22]

"All amps are volume dependent; meaning that tone depends on volume settings of the amp"

I find that to be far less of an issue or concern with SS amps. With tubes, yes that is very true and to complicate matters so too changing any one of available tone controls will often change the tone of the tone knob you didn't even touch. That is for example turning up the bass control can deepen the treble, cranking treble can thin out bass response.

[Cunamara]

Or I could find MY OWN sound…)

We have no choice but to have our own sound. We are all captives of our unique nervous systems, with micro differences that add up to our own distinctiveness. It's not just amps and guitars and knob settings, but how we use a pick or our fingers, how we fret the strings, what strings we tend to use and how we organize playing up and down the neck and across the strings. It's what intentions we have, whether we are tight or relaxed, how we breathe. Whether we relate to the space around us (musical, physical, psychological, spiritual) by expanding into or shrinking from it. In short, our sound comes from who we are interacting with the music and the world around us. We can't have anyone else's sound and no one else can have ours.

All this is to say: relax. You already have your own sound, and it will change over time as you learn and grow and change, as your intentions develop and your sensitivity to what the results are of the inputs you make. One specific piece of advice aside from the hippie philosophy: practice getting a sound you like acoustically. It will transfer to playing amplified. All that other stuff is mainly to keep from choking up when performing and losing our sound.

I've just learned more about this in the last 6 months than in the past 45 years (unexpectedly, through studying the Alexander Technique to try to address chronic neck and back pain). Growth is always an option.

[mikeSF]

I gigged with a Jim Hall/Metheny darkish ES-175 tone on a Blues Deluxe for 10 years. Mine was the USA version, not the MIM that came later. Yes it was 40lbs lugging up and down hills of San Francisco and on BART, but i was young. I turned mine into a cleaner jazz machine, having a tech rebias it and put in a set of cool power tubes, and i went with cleaner pre-amp tubes too. Replaced the stock Eminence speaker with a Weber higher breakup speaker and it was a lovely amp. FWIW

[Cunamara]

Good point. We haven't talked about tube rolling. If there's a 12AX7 in V1, replacing it with a 12AY7 might clean things up significantly and make everything easier to manage for a jazz tone. Biasing the amp cooler might also be helpful.

[joebloggs13]

I have been stuck in a rut of not liking my sound, especially on gigs when I listen back to recordings. I guess the stuff I hear in my head/enjoy listening to is always changing or evolving, but it’s generally, as the title of this thread suggests, a sound that is warm, full, and on the darker side in terms of tone or amp settings or whatever else. Specific examples include Rogers on “Sight”, Jim Hall on “Live” and most live recordings of Monder playing standards. How would others go about replicating their sounds, ignoring the fact that most of it obviously comes from their fingers? Whenever I roll my tone low, it gets too muddy. Most amp settings leave it sounding too bright for what I’m going for. I want something that is certainly on the lower end but still cuts through in a live room or on a recording.

For reference, my current rig alternates between a 335 and a 175, a small-ish pedalboard, and the amp is always a fender deluxe. The amp settings are usually treble at 2-4, bass at 2, and mids anywhere from 5 to 8. Similar settings on my EQ pedal, guitar tone anywhere from 6 to 10. I use a D’Andrea 1.5 pick and .10s on the 335, flat 12s on the 175. I try to pick as soft as possible.

I have found that a parametric EQ pedal will help 'warm up' your sound. I use a Tech 21 QStrip para eq.

[lawson-stone]

Tip: Some amps can be set with all knobs on 12 o'clock as a starting point. Other amps got a neutral sound when you turn everything off, just open up the volume and add some treble...There's no universal recipe, not even when it's a Fender amp, because they are not the same (different circuits, different speakers). Set the amp by ear, not by eye.

This is critical to know. Some amp tone controls work with a boost/cut from center, others are zero-ten. Often it's apparent from the numbering at the knob, but sometimes not.

[lawson-stone]

We have no choice but to have our own sound. We are all captives of our unique nervous systems, with micro differences that add up to our own distinctiveness. It's not just amps and guitars and knob settings, but how we use a pick or our fingers, how we fret the strings, what strings we tend to use and how we organize playing up and down the neck and across the strings. It's what intentions we have, whether we are tight or relaxed, how we breathe. Whether we relate to the space around us (musical, physical, psychological, spiritual) by expanding into or shrinking from it. In short, our sound comes from who we are interacting with the music and the world around us. We can't have anyone else's sound and no one else can have ours.

All this is to say: relax. You already have your own sound, and it will change over time as you learn and grow and change, as your intentions develop and your sensitivity to what the results are of the inputs you make. One specific piece of advice aside from the hippie philosophy: practice getting a sound you like acoustically. It will transfer to playing amplified. All that other stuff is mainly to keep from choking up when performing and losing our sound.

I've just learned more about this in the last 6 months than in the past 45 years (unexpectedly, through studying the Alexander Technique to try to address chronic neck and back pain). Growth is always an option.

So true. In making scores of videos for this site in study groups, I've played around with all kinds of gear and guitars, settings, etc. trying for different tones... in the end, I always end up just sounding like me. And while my playing isn't great, I actually realized that I like the tone I get from any of my guitars and amps. I tend to drift unconsciously toward a certain sound, and I've decided I like that sound and don't plan to experiment any more unless I'm just curious or bored. But I know, after decades of experimentation, that I will drift back to what I have on almost every clip I"ve ever posted.

[lawson-stone]

It might sound contrary to much that we say on this site, but the biggest change in my tone, as I hear it in recordings, is when I change guitars. The L5ces sounds different from the ES175, which sounds different from the Loar 650, and the Hagstrom I is yet another different tone. Back in the folk music scare of the 70's (when it almost caught on!) I used to perform in coffeehouses, and I'd have at least 3 guitars on stands behind me: a Dreadnought, a 12-string, a nylon string, and maybe a smaller-bodied flat-top tuned differently. Switching out guitars for their sound added variety. Nowadays, I still find the quickest way to shift my tone is to plug in a different instrument! But in the end, I still end up sounding like me.

[Herbie]

One thing is that the fact "bright sound cuts better thru mix" actually means that with that sound You don't have to have so much volume to hear yourself.

If You like darker sound, You have to increase the volume to hear yourself in the mix. And that's usually where other band members, mixing person and the other bar staff come into the equation!

[John A.]

One thing is that the fact "bright sound cuts better thru mix" actually means that with that sound You don't have to have so much volume to hear yourself.

If You like darker sound, You have to increase the volume to hear yourself in the mix. And that's usually where other band members, mixing person and the other bar staff come into the equation!

It really depends on what you mean by "bright" and what the instrumentation and overall sound are. For example, if there's a lot of cymbal wash a guitar sound with a lot of treble and not much mids can get buried. That's one of the chief causes of "volume war" within a band.