When did The Build, Top and Back Plates and Fit and Finish come into vogue

[wintermoon]

when discussing archtop guitars?
I can't ever remember them being used before this forum.
Top and back plates in the violin industry, yes, sometimes 'table' for tops. I always heard guitar tops and backs as just that., tops and backs.
Fit and finish on new cars.
Are we getting hoity toity w these archtops? Next thing you know we'll all be having Grey Poupon

[iim7V7IM7]

When a guitar is being made they are top plates, back plates and rims. Once made, a top, back and sides.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Are we getting hoity toity w these archtops? Next thing you know we'll all be having Grey Poupon

We're definitely evolving in that direction. But the roots run deep. Here's a vintage slab board -



and this is the latest double neck -



I bring it for the Bottle of the Bands!

[Cunamara]

Language is generally imprecise and used differently by each of us. Sometimes there are trends that rise up, are seen for a while and then go away.

[Stringswinger]

Bob and Cindy Benedetto monetized archtop building/sales with the help of Just Jazz Guitar magazine. That changed the discussions about archtop building.

To me, three things are important in any guitar, archtop or otherwise. They are:

The sound

The feel

The look

And all three of those things are largely subjective.

I leave things regarding the build to those who build them.

[AllanAllen]

when discussing archtop guitars?
I can't ever remember them being used before this forum.
Top and back plates in the violin industry, yes, sometimes 'table' for tops. I always heard guitar tops and backs as just that., tops and backs.
Fit and finish on new cars.
Are we getting hoity toity w these archtops? Next thing you know we'll all be having Grey Poupon

Fit and finish means they did the last steps at the factory. Fret leveling, fret ends filled down, action/intonation anywhere near correct, fingerprints wiped off with a clean rag. Adding a shim in a fender neck slot if needed (jk, they don’t do that anymore)… Easier to lump all that and call it “fit and finish” than list it individually.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I am just a low down dirty blues player with a tricone and am a big fan of Grey Poupon. Especially on a chili dog. It’s important. Archtop guitar players/collectors getting hoity toity about their guitars? Maybe just a little.lol

The problem with Grey Poupon for the blues is that the bottle's too fat...

[ccroft]

We've been talking Fit and Finish for 30 years in the woodshop I work at.
Fit = joinery and Finish = well, the finish. Like lacquer or whatever. Makes sense to me.

We're pizza and beer guys.

[deacon Mark]

I spend many years in Bill Barker's shop and Bill Hollenbeck starting in 1978. I never ever heard them called plates. It was a top or a back but never ever called plates and really not something that rings in my ears till this forum and going back some 15 years ago. Also, when they built a guitar, it was completely strung up and played for about a week sometimes more before any finish was ever applied to the guitar.

They would call that the raw build. Everything was done all the hardware on the guitar and set up completely as if it were going to be sent out to someone. Once that was done and everything checked out, the hardware was removed and the finish applied. Then of course the usual put the hardware back on the guitar. Barker said sometimes he would even take a guitar that was not spoken for on a gig in the raw just to give a test run. He said normally would not do that as that subjected the wood to smudges and potential issues finishing so it was not common.

I suppose many builders simply build the guitar and finish it before they ever really string it up. I wonder what Mark Campellone does on his builds? It almost appears to me he simply does the finish and then the final set up of hardware. I cannot in anyway imagine building an archtop without first doing this raw set up to see how things settle in. It also allowed for any tweaking of sound as carving still possible in places if the guitar is in the raw. It was a great way to really gage the sound of a guitar with finish and without finish. I can attest that over the years the nitro finish put on the guitar did very little to the sound compared to the raw build. I think that is why Barker and Hollenbeck were expert finishers. Hollenbeck in particular used a slightly different version of nitro compared to Barker. Some Barkers at the end of his build were done in acrylic lacquer too. Acrylic is not the thick poly finish but still thin and pretty much works like nitro however it does not yellow like nitro. The binding stays the same exact color very white as like new. Hollenbeck did not want to use acrylic he saw the advantages of nitro as superior for any touch up and finish work later in the guitar's life.

Another thing about finishing was the sunburst. As builders like the idea of adding the final artistic touch of a sunburst finish. Just doing a blond guitar to them was so much easier and less work even though Blond's are considered to be better at least to many players. I think the years of spraying guitars are one of reason Barker had heart and lung problems and died at age 66 needing a heart transplant. He did not want to do that, so he just lived till the heart gave out. He was a great player and singer, but the last 5 years really did not sing and play out much. That was back in the days you could still smoke in some places that bothered him.

Finishing a guitar is a art and can be dangerous you really have to cover your health. I know Hollenbeck would go through great lengths and used respirator and other things to avoid nitro damage to his body. He actually could play the guitar but not a skilled technical player. I started working around him in about 1983 because he took guitar lessons from me. He had great ear but said he could not make his hands match what the ear heard. I was fun because he would bring the guitars he was building and I would get to play them, yes even in the raw.

Points made, never heard of the word plates used. Raw guitars in buff. The most important points as SS says is the sound, the feel of the guitar and neck playing, and finally the style and look. I personally am very traditional and if you move to far in style it does not do anything for me. Over the years the masters of moving in style away from traditional but still great are D'aquisto, Monteleone, Trenier, at the moment come to mind. Without mentioning any names there are some guitars that while maybe very fine sounding just for looks I would not play. These days a simple L5 is looking as good as it gets.

Finally given we are talking of builders Hollenbeck said if he could not play one of his own guitars, he would want a Monteleone. He knew John and respected his great work. Barker always played and Albanus guitar that was made by Carl Albanus Johnson from Chicago who taught him how to build guitars. He normally only played his own when he made spare in a batch for himself but always had his trusty Albanus around.

[SierraTango]

Back in the late 80's my best friend was playing drums with Plaz Johnson at Dante's in North Hollywood (now a parking lot). Ron Eschete was the guitarist. It was the first time I heard a Benedetto live and I was blown away. Or course he is a monster player. My friend introduced me, and I asked him about the Benedetto. His comment was "He builds the top and back thinner than Gibson" That was first I heard about it.
As is well known, Bob mentored a whole crew of new builders. Unger, Comins, etc followed his examples and produced some very fine instruments.
Some players, like me, dig the thinner build and some don't. All personal taste.

[twtunes]

A fellow building a custom 10-string for me calls it the top. Preparing to contour:

After joining maple on top of sapele for bi-layer. Sapele body. Trying for 4mm thickness on top in the hollow chambers:

[deacon Mark]

Back in the late 80's my best friend was playing drums with Plaz Johnson at Dante's in North Hollywood (now a parking lot). Ron Eschete was the guitarist. It was the first time I heard a Benedetto live and I was blown away. Or course he is a monster player. My friend introduced me, and I asked him about the Benedetto. His comment was "He builds the top and back thinner than Gibson" That was first I heard about it.
As is well known, Bob mentored a whole crew of new builders. Unger, Comins, etc followed his examples and produced some very fine instruments.
Some players, like me, dig the thinner build and some don't. All personal taste.

Barker and Benedetto were friends, and Bill would go visit him when he was in Florida. This was in the late 1970's Bob was working out of his garage really. Barker would go down and spend some time in Florida and stop by. Barker was before Bob in building and had made many more guitars for sure at the time. He respected his work although the only thing he did not really like as such was the tailpiece. His reason was that the tailpiece being wood, and the strap was much harder to work with and flexed too much in the setup and tension. I am not sure what he actually thought it did to the sound of the guitar, but I do remember him not liking the strap stretch.

[wintermoon]

I never ever heard them called plates. It was a top or a back but never ever called plates and really not something that rings in my ears till this forum and going back some 15 years ago.

exactly and I think SS is correct, Benedetto probably started the trend. I haven't read his book but I bet he refers to tops and backs as plates in it.
So he's probably responsible for the Poupon-ing [Pouponification?] of archtop guitars.

[Cunamara]

I have a Benedetto style archtop made by the late Matt Cushman in 2006. It's a wonderful acoustic guitar, basically straight out of the Bob Benedetto method, and I really like how it feels to play and how it sounds acoustically. I've never been able to find an amplified sound with it that I love. I think some of that is just how individuals respond; many people have heard it as clear and with great note separation, but I hear it as having a stridency. Interestingly enough, that is not as evident when I hear recordings of my old band. I've kept it all these years mainly because I really like the acoustic tone.

My ES-175, on the other hand, sounds pretty much exactly like I want it to sound with almost no tweaking. The one tweak was that I switched to a nylon saddle TOM to reduce some ringiness. I suspect that the 175 was always the amplified sound I was going for and that buying a Benedetto style archtop guitar was a side road for me. My first jazz guitar teacher had a pre-war Gibson L7, later replaced with a Gibson Johnny Smith (which is still his only guitar almost 45 years later); as a result "jazz guitars" were always blondes with a floating pick up in my mind, even though auditorily it was the ES-175 sound that I was digging. I didn't adequately make that distinction.

[Woody Sound]

I bring it for the Bottle of the Bands!

[AllanAllen]

exactly and I think SS is correct, Benedetto probably started the trend. I haven't read his book but I bet he refers to tops and backs as plates in it.
So he's probably responsible for the Poupon-ing [Pouponification?] of archtop guitars.

An archtop, as a luxury, top of the line item is already pouponed. Pre-pouponed if you will.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

An archtop, as a luxury, top of the line item is already pouponed. Pre-pouponed if you will.

"How do you think we got so funky?"

[Cavalier]

I use grey poupon. The lids are the perfect size for vintage Volvo gas caps. I wouldn't leave home without some. It is one product that cuts the mustard.

[Bob_Ross]

Fit and finish on new cars.

I've heard "fit and finish" used for decades in many different industries: musical instruments, furniture, consumer hi-fi, pro audio, architectural millwork... it's a pretty handy term, because it encompasses...well, "fit" and "finish" which are both evident qualities (and evidence of the overall quality) of handbuilt items.

big fan of Grey Poupon. Especially on a chili dog. It’s important.

Quoting "2010: The Year We Make Contact"? I love that scene!