This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400

[wintermoon]

1951 Gibson Super 400 Rare early electric model with P-90's | Reverb

As soon as I saw the listing I thought this was going to be yet another acoustic to electric conversion, but nope...
Then I thought it had a changed tailpiece, but on closer inspection again nope...
Someone really wanted an electric non cut Super w/L-5 style block inlays and an L-5 tailpiece. The knobs are right, the t.p. is obviously custom made for this guitar, and the clincher for it being orig, the electric designation on the label
The price is up there as are many of Gary's but if you have deep pockets I guess it's not an issue, I have a feeling I know where this one will end up, in the collection of that guy in the land of the rising sun...

[jads57]

Again as far as what the instruments intended purpose was originally is now moot. Sure it’s historically significant,but it’s not really a very good choice for most situations.
And at that price,you could old buy several original Super 400, both acoustic and electric and have a lot of money left over.

Ive gotten to the point where I find these dealers, like Pimps with their wares. It’s really gross how over valued most older instruments these days. In fact it has nothing to do with actual playing music any longer. It’s just to brag about how rich or cool you are in the world, Big Yuck! And spare me the value of Stradivari Violins,etc.

[Stringswinger]

1951 Gibson Super 400 Rare early electric model with P-90's | Reverb

As soon as I saw the listing I thought this was going to be yet another acoustic to electric conversion, but nope...
Then I thought it had a changed tailpiece, but on closer inspection again nope...
Someone really wanted an electric non cut Super w/L-5 style block inlays and an L-5 tailpiece. The knobs are right, the t.p. is obviously custom made for this guitar, and the clincher for it being orig, the electric designation on the label
The price is up there as are many of Gary's but if you have deep pockets I guess it's not an issue, I have a feeling I know where this one will end up, in the collection of that guy in the land of the rising sun...

Which collector is that?

[wintermoon]

Which collector is that?

Mikes Arch Angels Thompson | Facebook

[wintermoon]

Ive gotten to the point where I find these dealers, like Pimps with their wares. It’s really gross how over valued most older instruments these days. In fact it has nothing to do with actual playing music any longer. It’s just to brag about how rich or cool you are in the world, Big Yuck! And spare me the value of Stradivari Violins,etc.

I used to think along those lines but as I've gotten older I have more of a live and let live attitude.
If a dealer asks what we perceive as a super high price for a collector type guitar and a well heeled collector comes along and purchases it, so what. If someone wants to plunk down 3/4 of a million samolians for the ultimate '59 burst, so what?
Now if I was loaded I still wouldn't buy this guitar from a utilitarian standpoint as I'm way more of a player than a collector, but if a guy like the gentleman in Japan that can obviously afford it wants to purchase it, let him, no skin off my shnoz. In the end something is only worth what someone is willing to pay.

[jads57]

I’m going down Swinging Pal,Lol!

[ThatRhythmMan]

1951 Gibson Super 400 Rare early electric model with P-90's | Reverb

As soon as I saw the listing I thought this was going to be yet another acoustic to electric conversion, but nope...
Then I thought it had a changed tailpiece, but on closer inspection again nope...
Someone really wanted an electric non cut Super w/L-5 style block inlays and an L-5 tailpiece. The knobs are right, the t.p. is obviously custom made for this guitar, and the clincher for it being orig, the electric designation on the label
The price is up there as are many of Gary's but if you have deep pockets I guess it's not an issue, I have a feeling I know where this one will end up, in the collection of that guy in the land of the rising sun...

It’s going to need a really massive discount to end up in Tokyo.


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[deacon Mark]

I could not be less interested in a guitar like this, give me the blond sister with no pickups cut in it and acoustic. Funny how we perceived things and what one might think is beautiful or cool. I actually do like P90's they sound great so for me a Gibson 350 would take care of that aspect.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Someone really wanted an electric non cut Super w/L-5 style block inlays and an L-5 tailpiece..

Then again, maybe someone at Gibson found a noncut body that nobody wanted. Toss in a neck, a pair of garden variety pickups, an L-5 tailpiece, and some extra binding, and you might be able to sell it. $89k is more than the seller asked for Tony Mottola's 7 string Super 400. As they say in the used car business, there's an ass for every seat.

[wintermoon]

Then again, maybe someone at Gibson found a noncut body that nobody wanted. Toss in a neck, a pair of garden variety pickups, an L-5 tailpiece, and some extra binding, and you might be able to sell it. $89k is more than the seller asked for Tony Mottola's 7 string Super 400. As they say in the used car business, there's an ass for every seat.

I doubt that, Gibson was still offering non cut acoustics in the 50s. That neck w the block inlays of an L-5 and an L-5 t.p engraved w Super 400 and the Gibson logo where the L-5 engraving would normally be (which I've never seen before) are all custom features of this guitar. More likely someone wanted the electronics of the newly introduced CES models in a non cut Super body w some custom features on top of it.
One thing I did notice is marks from the bridge posts below the base, so maybe the bridge was in the wrong spot for a time.

[ThatRhythmMan]

And Bernunzio just listed a short scale (23.5”) Super 400 also.

Bernunzio Uptown Music


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[wintermoon]

And Bernunzio just listed a short scale (23.5”) Super 400 also.

Bernunzio Uptown Music


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He also forgot to mention the t.p. isn't orig to the guitar
That's an interesting one, they squeezed all the Super 400 inlays into a standard sized headstock.

[wintermoon]

It’s going to need a really massive discount to end up in Tokyo.


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Is there an extra tariff over a certain dollar amount going into Japan?

[Hammertone]

And Bernunzio just listed a short scale (23.5”) Super 400 also.
Bernunzio Uptown Music

He also forgot to mention the t.p. isn't orig to the guitar
That's an interesting one, they squeezed all the Super 400 inlays into a standard sized headstock.

Pickguard shape from a Johnny Smith D?

[andrew]

When I read the title of the thread, I knew EXACTLY what guitar we were going to be talking about.

Do I want it? Absolutely not. But it is fascinating in a “it goes against everything we thought we knew about Super 400s” kind of way. No mention of anything like this at all in Van Hoose’s Super 400 book.

[58flame]

Both are ruined in my opinion, right out of the gate. The P-90 400 price is absurd.

[customxke]

I’m not going to lie……I’d hit it.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Pickguard shape from a Johnny Smith D?

That pickguard looks like it melted in the sun.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I was serious in suggesting that this could be a parts bin product built on a S400N body. I assume that Gary’s has validated the authenticity as well as possible. Maybe I missed info to the contrary, but I think it’s odd that no one has ever heard of or seen this guitar before. The description leaves out some key facts that could help ID and authenticate it.

Apparently, the first factory electric S400 was what Van Hoose documents as a single pickup S-400 PN(E) from 1939. But all he offers is pictures of it, with no details or info on subsequent prewar electric 400s (if there were any). And there’s no info on non-cut ES 400s (if Gibson ever made any, which seems not to be documented - including this apparent one-off).

From the first S-400 CES, the bracing was different from the acoustic 400s and the tops were thicker. These features are easy to see and measure. Are the braces identical to non-cut S-400s? Is there a FON inside? Are there date codes on the pots? How did Gary’s authenticate it? From whom did Gary’s acquire it and how did it get to that person? If it’s a consignment piece, what further info is available from the seller? There has to be some available history.

IIRC (I looked it up when this thread started), there were 64 400Ns shipped from ‘48-‘51, per Van Hoose. Was this one included in that number? It wouldn’t be in the CESN batch - so was it an N body, was it built as an electric (which would have made it a S-400 ESN, if Gibson stuck to their convention), or was it never documented by Gibson as a shipped instrument? Serial numbers A6598-9420 were assigned to 1951 Gibsons, so the label fits a ‘51. But how it came to be, for whom it was made and why, and where it’s been for 74 years are not discussed or described anywhere, unless I missed it.

I’d want a lot more info before considering it at a reasonable price. For 89 grand, its history and provenance should be an open book and very impressive.

[ThatRhythmMan]

It looks good from the player’s side. Baby got back no doubt. In all seriousness it looks like a “rockabilly” guitar aimed at guitarists like Scotty Moore and Bill Haley as opposed to a jazz cat like Kenny Burrell.

I had a 1950 Super 400 with a back that looked like it was from the same tree.




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[wintermoon]

I was serious in suggesting that this could be a parts bin product built on a S400N body. I assume that Gary’s has validated the authenticity as well as possible. Maybe I missed info to the contrary, but I think it’s odd that no one has ever heard of or seen this guitar before. The description leaves out some key facts that could help ID and authenticate it.

Apparently, the first factory electric S400 was what Van Hoose documents as a single pickup S-400 PN(E) from 1939. But all he offers is pictures of it, with no details or info on subsequent prewar electric 400s (if there were any). And there’s no info on non-cut ES 400s (if Gibson ever made any, which seems not to be documented - including this apparent one-off).

From the first S-400 CES, the bracing was different from the acoustic 400s and the tops were thicker. These features are easy to see and measure. Are the braces identical to non-cut S-400s? Is there a FON inside? Are there date codes on the pots? How did Gary’s authenticate it? From whom did Gary’s acquire it and how did it get to that person? If it’s a consignment piece, what further info is available from the seller? There has to be some available history.

IIRC (I looked it up when this thread started), there were 64 400Ns shipped from ‘48-‘51, per Van Hoose. Was this one included in that number? It wouldn’t be in the CESN batch - so was it an N body, was it built as an electric (which would have made it a S-400 ESN, if Gibson stuck to their convention), or was it never documented by Gibson as a shipped instrument? Serial numbers A6598-9420 were assigned to 1951 Gibsons, so the label fits a ‘51. But how it came to be, for whom it was made and why, and where it’s been for 74 years are not discussed or described anywhere, unless I missed it.

I’d want a lot more info before considering it at a reasonable price. For 89 grand, its history and provenance should be an open book and very impressive.

It's not unusual for old under the bed guitars to surface many years later, look @ the D'Angelico teardrop for example.
No one had ever heard of it before except Jimmy D'Aquisto and he had forgotten about it until Mandolin Brothers got it and sold it to Scott Chinery.
The serial number of this Super puts it towards the end of '51 right around when the CES models were introduced so it might have been ordered w out the customer having an actual non cut CES model in mind. Maybe he was just basing it on wanting the electronics of a an ES300 or 350 w a non cut Super body. But w/ the custom features of the neck and t.p. it was surely a special order.
It would be interesting to know how it was braced to know if the body was actually an acoustic to start. I'm pretty sure Gary contacted Walter Carter or someone w access to the shipping records so he likely knows more than his ad states, but he's never been one to write long descriptions in his listings.
But even then it might simply be written in the ledgers as what we see, a Super 400NE w out much else to go on.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

But even then it might simply be written in the ledgers as what we see, a Super 400NE w out much else to go on.

...and that would be sufficient.

[wintermoon]

...and that would be sufficient.

to me that E on the label is sufficient but agree w/ you it would be nice to know more.

[andrew]

Why did Gibson discontinue etching “Super 400” on the neck heel of the model in 1939? I have always liked the touch it adds.

My guess is $$$. It’s a shame because I really like that too.

I recently read the Van Hoose book cover-to-cover (hey, I was sick for two weeks, that’s my excuse!). One big takeaway was that over time, Gibson kept looking for more corners to cut (even with a flagship piece like the S400). For example, the pickguard mounting brackets were engraved on the earliest examples. They dropped that idea after a few years to save time.

[wintermoon]

My guess is $$$. It’s a shame because I really like that too.

I recently read the Van Hoose book cover-to-cover (hey, I was sick for two weeks, that’s my excuse!). One big takeaway was that over time, Gibson kept looking for more corners to cut (even with a flagship piece like the S400). For example, the pickguard mounting brackets were engraved on the earliest examples. They dropped that idea after a few years to save time.