This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400

**ThatRhythmMan** · 06-29-2025, 03:43 PM

The early ones had so much extra detail work. The tailpiece was also etched and the engraving was more ornate than postwar examples.

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**Hammertone** · 06-29-2025, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by HiFi Mule2Ride

Why did Gibson discontinue etching “Super 400” on the neck heel of the model in 1939? I have always liked the touch it adds.

Same reason they stopped engraving the pickguard mounting bracket and simplified the engraving on the tailpiece - it was an unnecessary cost that lowered margins.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 06-29-2025, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

to me that E on the label is sufficient

I know this may shock you, 'moon. But there are actually people out there who are making and selling fakes. I'm not saying that this is one of them, but I'd want a lot more assurance that it's real than I see so far. A good luthier can turn a $7500 Super 400 into a $90k Super 400 E with a pair of P-90s, 4 pots, a swtich, a jack, a hank of wire, a Sharpie, and one of these:

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-replica_gibson_labels-jpg

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-replica_gibson_labels-jpg

Toss in a replica L5 neck & board, an engraved relic'ed L5 tailpiece, and replica headstock inlay to make it "custom".

**wintermoon** · 06-29-2025, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

I know this may shock you, 'moon. But there are actually people out there who are making and selling fakes. I'm not saying that this is one of them, but I'd want a lot more assurance that it's real than I see so far. A good luthier can turn a $7500 Super 400 into a $90k Super 400 E with a pair of P-90s, 4 pots, a swtich, a jack, a hank of wire, a Sharpie, and one of these:

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-replica_gibson_labels-jpg

Toss in a replica L5 neck & board, an engraved relic'ed L5 tailpiece, and replica headstock inlay to make it "custom".

Yeah I kinda doubt someone's gonna fake a fully carved Super 400 and make a special engraved tailpiece and neck for it when they can much more easily fake a 'burst, Loar mandolin, Gretsch White Penguin etc and get real money, those actually do exist. Besides, Gary's selling it for 90 grand, if he bought it he certainly didn't pay anywhere near that much.
If that guitar's a phony I'll be a monkey's uncle, though that could be a moot point since I may be one anyway.

**Hammertone** · 06-30-2025, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Yeah I kinda doubt someone's gonna fake a fully carved Super 400 and make a special engraved tailpiece and neck for it when they can much more easily fake a 'burst, Loar mandolin, Gretsch White Penguin etc and get real money, those actually do exist. Besides, Gary's selling it for 90 grand, if he bought it he certainly didn't pay anywhere near that much.
If that guitar's a phony I'll be a monkey's uncle, though that could be a moot point since I may be one anyway.

Well, it's Gary's Classic Guitars, so we'll have the next 10-15 years to decide before it actually sells.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 06-30-2025, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

Yeah I kinda doubt someone's gonna fake a fully carved Super 400 and make a special engraved tailpiece and neck for it when they can much more easily fake a 'burst, Loar mandolin, Gretsch White Penguin etc and get real money, those actually do exist. Besides, Gary's selling it for 90 grand, if he bought it he certainly didn't pay anywhere near that much.
If that guitar's a phony I'll be a monkey's uncle, though that could be a moot point since I may be one anyway.

So you’re a monkey’s uncle and I’m paranoid. It could be worse

I think you misunderstood my premise. I agree that no one is likely to fake an S400. But there are a few on Reverb right now for under $10k, and one with a broken neck would be worth even less. A decent luthier could easily drop on an L5 neck - there’s one on ‘verb for $750. The diamond headstock inlay is also for sale, as are used P-90s. The label is readily available if the original is gone or so faded that adding the E would be impossible to pull off, and a thin black Sharpie marker completes the conversion kit.

So for well under $10k and no more effort than a reneck, some trim work, and drilling the holes for the pickup screws and wires plus pots and jack, you can turn plain old Super 400N #A9236 (still worth under $10k if renecked & cleaned up) into the newly discovered, long hidden, undocumented custom built Super 400 N-E #A2936 that’s now “worth” enough more to justify the effort to the miscreant who would do this. I know Gary’s would not do this. But everyone on this thread except me seems to accept that this swan is real and not an ugly duckling after a makeover. Maybe Gary does too. If there’s documentation, it should be at least described if not shown.

Of course this is far fetched, but it’s quite possible and has been done right here in our own backyard. Think back to the late ‘60s when a noted Philadelphia violin maker on Rittenhouse Square was caught making and selling a Strad or three. The fact that a knowledgeable, reputable dealer believes in this guitar enough to offer it for sale is reassuring. But it’s no guarantee of authenticity and I would think any reasonable person would want more.

**wintermoon** · 06-30-2025, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

So you’re a monkey’s uncle and I’m paranoid. It could be worse

I think you misunderstood my premise. I agree that no one is likely to fake an S400. But there are a few on Reverb right now for under $10k, and one with a broken neck would be worth even less. A decent luthier could easily drop on an L5 neck - there’s one on ‘verb for $750. The diamond headstock inlay is also for sale, as are used P-90s. The label is readily available if the original is gone or so faded that adding the E would be impossible to pull off, and a thin black Sharpie marker completes the conversion kit.

So for well under $10k and no more effort than a reneck, some trim work, and drilling the holes for the pickup screws and wires plus pots and jack, you can turn plain old Super 400N #A9236 (still worth under $10k if renecked & cleaned up) into the newly discovered, long hidden, undocumented custom built Super 400 N-E #A2936 that’s now “worth” enough more to justify the effort to the miscreant who would do this. I know Gary’s would not do this. But everyone on this thread except me seems to accept that this swan is real and not an ugly duckling after a makeover. Maybe Gary does too. If there’s documentation, it should be at least described if not shown.

Of course this is far fetched, but it’s quite possible and has been done right here in our own backyard. Think back to the late ‘60s when a noted Philadelphia violin maker on Rittenhouse Square was caught making and selling a Strad or three. The fact that a knowledgeable, reputable dealer believes in this guitar enough to offer it for sale is reassuring. But it’s no guarantee of authenticity and I would think any reasonable person would want more.

No, I didn't misunderstand your premise.
It's just far fetched that someone's gonna make a fake electric custom 1951 non cut Super 400.
It's a bit beyond far fetched that they'd make one w a 3 piece Super 400 neck that you'd have to make from scratch, L-5 block inlays on the board instead of the usual split blocks, tool up to make a single L-5 t.p. instead of the usual Super 400 t.p. that would come w the guitar and engrave Super 400 on the crossbar of said L-5 t.p. where there'd normally be no model name and engrave the Gibson logo where the L-5 engraving would normally be. And then you'd have to seamlessly remove the factory neck and install that fake neck which would be extremely difficult to do, especially on a natural finish guitar.
It's just way too much work for a fake guitar that would have very limited appeal for the simple fact that it's an archtop, and a non cut on top of it. The only phony archtop of any note that I can remember is a D'Angelico NYer that Mandolin Brothers had that they immediately recognized as being bogus.
The possibility of this being a fake just doesn't make common sense if you think about it.
Now a Strad is a different animal...
Either way I'm prepared to go to the market and pick up a bunch of bananas if I'm wrong.

**Stringswinger** · 06-30-2025, 09:27 AM

I have to agree with Wintermoon. Why would a fake guitar scammer do this? It has seriously limited appeal (I would not want this guitar for 10K let alone its asking price). I like bananas, so if I am also wrong, no sweat.

I get that to a collector, a one-off guitar can have extra value, but if one wanted to make an archtop fake to scam a well-heeled collector, why choose the strange combination found on this guitar? The one thing that I am certain of regarding this guitar is that it is priced to not sell.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 06-30-2025, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

I have to agree with Wintermoon. Why would a fake guitar scammer do this?

I agree with both of you that this is highly unikely to have been created from a down-at-the-heels ratty old S400N. I'm just pointing out the possibility that it was. The risk of accepting it as real with no proof at all other than the opinion of experts is low but not zero, and the answer to your question is simple:

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-s400ne_price-jpg

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-s400ne_price-jpg

The people who do these kinds of things don't think like we do because they're thieves. The people who buy high end fakes have little recourse in most cases.

Some remarkable fakes have been accepted as real by widely respected authorites. The most famous is probably an Hermes Birkin handbag (the Super 400 of handbags) that was so good it was repaired by Hermes without detection. It was identified by the very sophisticated lab and program at the Winterthur Museum in Delaware that does forensics for the FBI and international law enforcement. They've identified amazing fakes of all kinds among the world's best known collections - furniture, jewelry, musical instruments, wines, watches etc. Here's a link to their website, and the exhibit is well worth the trip. They have some very famous real and fake items side by side, with detailed analysis and the findings that gave the fakes away.

Again - I do not believe that this is a fake. I just don't think we should accept rare and newly unearthed things as real without at least some proof. At the very least, we should be somewhat skeptical of an odd one off with no provenance other than the fact that a reputable dealer is selling it.

And that's enough said. I might even buy it if it had 7 strings............
This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-smiley_laughing_and_playing_guitar-gif

This Custom '51 Gibson Super 400-smiley_laughing_and_playing_guitar-gif

**wintermoon** · 06-30-2025, 11:56 AM

If you're going to go to the trouble to create a fake you're going to draw more attention/scrutiny by adding custom features.
And I could be wrong on this too but I don't think they had Sharpies in '51

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 06-30-2025, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by wintermoon

I don't think they had Sharpies in '51

Aha! A clue!!

**wintermoon** · 06-30-2025, 01:14 PM

And all this time I thought you were from the tri state are, but it turns out you're from Missouri.
But sure, if I was serious about purchasing, I'd at least ask Gary what else he knows that's not in the ad.
as for some guitars sitting on his list since before time, that's true to a large degree but it's also true he gets some seriously nice guitars, probably because he pays more than most, and sells more than you might think. He's also not relying on selling guitars to keep a roof over his head and can afford to sit on them.