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An earlier, much older thread mentioned the Heritage GE as being on par with the Citation and I'm wondering if anyone has played the two or compared the two side by side. Maybe it's the same idea as any other Heritage V Gibson but still curious, given the Citation's higher cost. Jay Wolfe just listed a blonde GE and made the same mention of the GE as the Heritage's version of the Citation. I was not aware that the GE was conceived with the Citation in mind.
Thank you for any insight here.
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05-31-2025 09:30 AM
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The Golden Eagles I’ve tried pale in comparison as acoustic instruments in my experience. Some sounded no better acoustically than a really good ES-335, and I’m not being hyperbolic in the slightest. There may be some acoustically really good Golden Eagles out there. I’ve heard others say that there are, but I haven’t witnessed one in person.
Originally Posted by tomvwash
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I own a D'Angelico New Yorker replica that was built by one of the Heritage founders (JP Moats) and was worked on by some other ex-Gibson guys (Marv Lamb and Aaron Cowles). It is a superb acoustic archtop guitar that is on a par with any acoustic Super 400C that I have ever played. But that said, I have been very underwhelmed by the acoustic voice of most of the Heritage archtops that I have played. Many of the Heritage archtops that I have played were either built to be primarily electric guitars or perhaps somebody was asleep at the switch during their construction. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
To be fair, I have played quite a few Gibson archtops that did not have much of an acoustic voice as well. And furthermore, I have a Gibson L-5 Wesmo that is great acoustically, but suffers from feed back at higher volumes.
Archtop guitars can be so different in their attributes that I have determined one needs to have many of them to tick all of the boxes.
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I think the only real connection is the bling factor. I ordered a Sunburst Golden Eagle from Jay back in the mid 1990's. It was a beautiful looking guitar that just didn't sound that great acoustically, perhaps because it was brand new and not played in yet. I've played a couple of Citations over the years and they were on another level acoustically.
If you love bling either one is a good choice. However doesn't the OP already have a Citation?
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I have a '97 GE thats acoustically equal to a Citation and louder than a Gibb Smith, Im second owner and assume since they were largely built to order it must have been ordered that way.
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I too have a D'angelico replica New Yorker made by Heritage. Now that I have spent 2 years playing it in it is also on par with any Super 400c that I have played. It does not sound like a Super 400 as such because the guitar is a bit brighter sounding than most Super 400. Yesterday I happened to play it using my decibel meter app on my iPhone. This guitar registered as one of the loudest of a few I tried, and it plays superb. I personally think Heritage made the best acoustic guitars with their Johnny Smith rose. I have played Golden Eagles that were ok and some very good but not quite up to the level of an L5 acoustic. I really think this is because the body is smaller and not as much movement of air. They do make fine chord melody guitars. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I own a D'Angelico New Yorker replica that was built by one of the Heritage founders (JP Moats) and was worked on by some other ex-Gibson guys (Marv Lamb and Aaron Cowles). It is a superb acoustic archtop guitar that is on a par with any acoustic Super 400C that I have ever played. But that said, I have been very underwhelmed by the acoustic voice of most of the Heritage archtops that I have played. Many of the Heritage archtops that I have played were either built to be primarily electric guitars or perhaps somebody was asleep at the switch during their construction.
To be fair, I have played quite a few Gibson archtops that did not have much of an acoustic voice as well. And furthermore, I have a Gibson L-5 Wesmo that is great acoustically, but suffers from feed back at higher volumes.
Archtop guitars can be so different in their attributes that I have determined one needs to have many of them to tick all of the boxes.
Just a note on the decibel meter. I put my 49 New Yorker up to the task. It has relatively low action for most acoustic playing, but this has almost no effect on the sound. It by a good margin had higher readings. I would get 83-95 on the Heritage Ghost build pushing the sound with a heavy hand. The 49 would run 85-95 with nothing just playing normal. However, if you really hit the chords with your right hand, it would peak above 95 continuously. No Golden Eagle I have played comes close to either but they sound quite sweet. Loud in and of itself is not necessarily better at all and can be a detrimental depending on your playing style.
My personal take though is Heritage Carved top guitars are undervalued in the market and I would not hesitate to check them out. The key here is play beforehand so you know what you are getting. There are also more user friendly for setting up than old Epiphones and some older archtops.
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No, I wish that I did, but at that price point, probs not. Originally Posted by SierraTango
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I have had a good experience with acoustic GEs but don't own one now. I have three with mounted pickups and several 16, 17 and 18 inch archtops of other models with floaters. I have scoped all of them and I palpate what I can reach through the f holes. All are structurally good. The carving is not exactly the same though. Some I know were tap tuned. Some I'm not sure about. A couple I need heavier strings to drive the tops it seems.
Bob Benedetto put a very complimentary review of a Heritage archtop. Amazon.com
The Johnny Smiths and the American Eagle I have were carved by Aaron Cowles. I knew Aaron pretty well. Here's a video of him doing his "old school" work.
I'm from Kalamazoo and may have low standards. The Gibson workers talked about the huge demand on Gibson with the popularity of Elvis and then the Beatles. They would produce up to 400 guitars a day I've been told. Quality was variable. One of the builders said that if you threw wood into a case it would sell! I've had a number of 1960s Gibsons, some were marked "bargain" or 2nd. All of them worked fine.
I can compare Aaron Cowles' and Chuck Thornton's work to Gibson and Heritage. Nothing gets out of the first two's shops less than perfect. I'm sure that's true with quite a few elite luthiers.
A friend of mine has this guitar in his home. He is one of the designers and a fine luthier. Heritage Core Collection H-717 Electric Guitar | Heritage Guitars He went through several iterations to build the optimal pickup in his and an elite group's opinion. The guitar is very light. I've held it. It feels too fragile, and it makes me anxious.
Lastly, Heritage has seemingly improved over the last five years, maybe longer. Pete Farmer, who is a great and serious guy, oversees quality. He has built two of my guitars (not alone).
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My friend in town has a Gibson Citation. As it stands Jim { my friend} passed away 12 days ago from heart failure but was battling cancer in his esophagus. May he rest in peace, but I am really down on it. He was only 63 and lived a very quiet and ordinary life. Sad for sure.
His Citation he got from no other than Big Mike about 3 years ago. This guitar is very nice, and we spend much time comparing it to the other guitars we had. Needless to say we had plenty of quality carved tops to make comparisons. The Citation was a fine guitar but frankly no better acoustically than anything else we compared it to. I like the guitar as was impressed but against Hollenbeck's, Barkers, and various other Gibsons it was simply acoustically not better for sure. It has bling because it says Gibson Citation on the label but really not any better than other Gibsons of like carving.
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This is my ‘03 non-cutaway Super Eagle. The plates were carved and tap tuned by Aaron Cowles. No electronics ever installed. Heritage could make a fine acoustic instrument like this when they set their mind to it.
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Now that is a guitar you must pick it up and really play it without any help. Originally Posted by andrew
This is my ‘03 non-cutaway Super Eagle. The plates were carved and tap tuned by Aaron Cowles. No electronics ever installed. Heritage could make a fine acoustic instrument like this when they set their mind to it.
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I am sure there is variation between guitars of a given model, and this would be true for both Gibson and Heritage. So I think that, at that level of guitar, it would be difficult to make comparisons of a sample of one. Chances are that in some instances, the Gibson would be superior and in others, the Heritage would be at least equal, if not superior. I have a 1995 Citation and it is (in my personal opinion) the finest archtop I have played. That said, I have played few high(er) end archtops, so I doubt that my statement says anything worthwhile to the community at large.
Tony
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Well, I vote for the Kalamazoo Award. There are strong reasons for this. First, a citation is what a cop gives you for speeding. An award is a good thing. Second, I'm from Kalamazoo. Third, I like the looks.
I've touched one before. I'll never own one for fear of damaging it somehow.
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That Kalamazoo Award is a beautiful guitar. Now I have an indelible mark in my mind of "Citation" being a ticket. I got erroneously clocked for speeding in my RX-7 years ago. I lived across the street from a canine patrol cop who immediately asked me if there was a large vehicle in the vicinity. There was - a newspaper delivery truck. He said that there was a joke among cops about people parked and being clocked for speeding under similar conditions. I went to court to argue the ticket, but the guy in front of me had a ticket for speeding in a Maserati and was giving the judge a hard time. When my turn came up, the judge saw my car was an RX-7 and he wouldn't even hear my story. I should have been given a Gibson Citation instead of a piece of paper, but such is life. I got a "real" Gibson Citation many years later, so it all worked out. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
Tony
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So just my experience over the years playing both models as well as Gibson Johnny Smiths. Aside from the looks or fancy woods, I think the best acoustic sounding guitars seem to be built by the following luthiers at Gibson or Heritage.
Aaron Cowles, Jim Hutchins, and later Gibsons Jim Culbertson and Phillip Wharton. And again just my experience throughout many years of playing these various models at Lavonne Music.
I think some of the best sounding instruments,especially the Johnny Smiths had really plain Jane wood selection. Much like selecting a mate on their abilities rather than their looks,Lol!
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Aaron Cowles indeed was a fine carver. I still have Big Mike's Unity Angel at the house I have to take it back to him coming up. He did not sell any of the Unity guitars and these were made by Aaron. This Unity of Big Mikes is quite a sound maker. It has rich tone for chord melody but plenty of power if you want the Freddie Green thing. To me it is really like a great Super 400 possibly with just a little less of the steely sound some and rounder. Has a very high arch and the bridge/saddle is high. Might be my only minor thing I think it is possibly a bit too high, but you know the neck will never need to be reset.
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Unfortunately, I can't read the scribbling of the person who signed my Citation. He must have been a doctor in a former life. Originally Posted by jads57
Tony
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Since there were not many Citations made,it should be fairly easy to find out which luthier built yours from its serial number. Also by which year it was made.
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OK. Mine was built in 1995 and has the serial number 1995001, so I believe it was probably the first of that batch. The first name starts with a 'T', and I think the last name starts with an 'R'. It is signed as T R(the rest I can't read because it is just a scribble). Originally Posted by jads57
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I had a Heritage JS that was on par with many non-cut acoustics I've played. Not bright, kind of a dark sound, but very full and loud. The neck/action were also excellent.
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I now pack away my wood archtops for the winter and have just been pulling them out. "Packing away" simply means they are stored in their cases in my den rather than that I stuff them into some rented storage locker. All my acoustic guitars are now carbon fiber from Emerald and McPherson. I have a carbon fiber Emerald archtop (they call it the Kestrel) among that collection. My wood archtops consist of the Gibson Citation, Eastman FV-880 (Frank Vignola) that I bought at the height of the Great COVID Scare, and Jimmy Foster 7 string. As I pull these out for the spring/summer, I am realizing how spoiled I am, being able to have such fine instruments. As somebody mentioned around here, in a sense I am just the caretaker of them.
The Citation I took over to St. Paul Guitar Repair yesterday to have it set up. I don't trust myself to mess with it. The Eastman needed some simple adjustment that I did myself. Playing the Eastman, I am realizing again how comfortable it is to play with its smaller body, somewhat shorter scale than the Citation, and wider fretboard. The acoustic sound of the Eastman, though louder than the Citation, is not nearly as pleasing to my ears. The Citation is warm and smoother overall, while the Eastman is much brighter, almost brittle, but very clear with good note separation. As for plugging them in, they both sound very good. The Eastman has a Lollar Johnny Smith floating pickup and the Citation has the BJB (?) pickup. The Citation is noticeably heavier than the Eastman and there is a difference in quality, though both are fine guitars.
Anyway, just some observations. I play chord melody fingerstyle rather than with a pick, so my observations on tone might differ from those pick players if they sat with these guitars.
Tony
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Tony, Originally Posted by tbeltrans
I keep my guitars in cases all time unless playing them and I put them back in the cases when I switch guitars. They lined up and I just pick one to play. Putting them away for a period of time I would not consider. Better to play them on a regular basis even if only for 10 minutes. This allows you to monitor the guitar continually as things change. I move the action a bit from season to season depending on the guitar. I just had to lower the action a bit on my 38 L5. Maybe a small turn of the bass side wheel. I rotate and play them as time goes, and my usual trick is to play one guitar for about 30 minutes then get another and play it for 30 minutes.
I say leave those guitars out and play them they are not so delicate that they will explode under normal conditions. As time goes a well-made guitar usually stabilizes much better unless you are gigging all over in various climates. That is not so horrible either think of all those pre-war Gibson that have been all over the planet and they hold up quite well.
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Thread Drift: How do you like that Kestrel? Specifically, how does it compare to a more traditional archtop jazz guitar? Originally Posted by tbeltrans
As a bass player, I'm a huge fan of carbon fiber instruments. I still own the Steinberger I bought in 1982 and the Modulus Graphite Quantum-6 I had made for me in 1988. Recently sold off another Modulus Quantum-6 TBX because it wasn't getting enough playing time. And I was 1RCH away from buying an Emerald Baylor acoustic bass guitar a couple years back (until I stumbled over a sweet Breedlove for 1/10th of the price).
But I would love to hear that a carbon fiber archtop can go toe-to-toe with the classics!
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The Kestrel is a good instrument. Comfortable to play with a wider fretboard like my Eastman FV-880 and smaller body, also similar to the Eastman. It is very different from its wood counterparts, enough so that I consider it a different guitar altogether. It doesn't really have an arch top as my wood archtops do, but it does have the 'F' holes. For somebody who is alrady familiar with archtop guitars, it would probably be fine. But for somebody who has never encountered a carbon fiber guitar, probably best to try before s/he buys. Not everybody will take to them. My first carbon fiber guitar was the CA Guitars Cargo, which I still have. I bought it new around 2007. I also own the McPherson Sable and Touring, as well as the Emerald X20 and X20-7 (seven string). The McPhersons feel just like a Taylor acoustic with regard to neck shape and string spacing, while the Emeralds have a wider fretobard like the CA Guitars Cargo. Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
Tony
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