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Apparently your not there yet or your a young muscleman thats gigging with a twin 6 nights a week, I started hauling my twin in '68. Ive never heard a better guitar amp...ever. Mabey all your gigs let you park right close to the bandstand? I traded it for a deluxe because I couldnt carry it anymore 15yrs ago then that got to heavy. Now I play a tiny roland or quilter and someone usually helps me "load" in. This is is the only forum or social media of any kind that I visit soley because theres a lot of geezers like myself that cant lift their twins either and think your remark is shall we say uninformed (full of crap) and for your information the "holding any water" quote gets more real as you age.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
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03-01-2025 03:01 PM
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I'm a fan of turning up to a gig and there's a Twin already there.
It does happen!
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I did say "unless you have a severe physical limitation" but maybe you already had your mind set with your response before you got to that part. Yeah, if you are physically unable to lift a deluxe from the trunk of your car and put it on a dolly, then Quilter is a good option even if you prefer tube amps to solid states as much as you seem to. Originally Posted by Rickco
I was referring to people who "claim" to enjoy their tube amps much more than their SS amps but find the effort of picking up the extra 20 pounds from the trunk inconvenient when they are physically able to do it. There is sometimes a disconnect between the idea of a tube amp and the actual difference in the experience of a tube amp and the alternatives. The weight separates the romanticizers from the actual fans. If someone's experience of performing their gigs is markedly superior with a tube amp, then the minor inconvenience of the extra weight wouldn't be a show-stopper in most cases.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-01-2025 at 05:05 PM.
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So tubes while sometimes are great! You need to find the Sweet Spot on pushing them (Power Tubes) That’s why so many people like the smaller powered amps such as Princeton,Deluxe,Vox AC 30 and all of their variants.
But they become somewhat limited in many situations you might encounter.
1.)The wall voltage can vary at different venues or even just different nights at many clubs.
2.)You may encounter having to play places without monitors and cover a large room.
3.) Most of the traditional Fenders,and even some Boutique amps don’t have a great line out on them.
4.) Many amps are not that versatile and handling different instruments such as acoustic,synth,etc. are not good choices.
5.) You thus need many different amps to cover your needs and venues played.
Now I’m not talking about guys who just play for fun in their basement or with just a couple of buddies for fun.
Rather talking about how many different situations a pro gets called to play in.
And there are a myriad of new direct devices that actually really good and affordable as well.
For me my Quilter Aviator combos 1x8 and 1x12, cover all of their variants described situations from direct to acoustic flat top,Archtops, solid bodies,synths, etc.
The direct out is phenomenal! I only need appropriate pedals to cover any Pop,Rock,Loud Gig!
I recently played through a Boss Katana Artist 1x12 latest version. Totally Floored!
Again sure a vintage Princeton,Deluxe Reverb,Ampeg Gemini,Vox AC 30, Matchless DC 30 are great amps. But how much do want to spend for one tone? Remember there are a lot more possibilities these days for cheap!
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I like tube amps more than 20-50 year old solid state amps, but since Quilter came along, it's been neck and neck for me. I think a lot of you guys hating on solid state still hear a Gorilla pro amp with your eyes. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Not sure where you get that from. I love solid state amps. Currently I prefer them to my tube amps. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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What, only the truly old and infirm are allowed to avoid heavy objects? The rest of us have to schlep Twins because we can, even though we don’t want to? People who are happy with the trade-offs they make between tone and convenience have to come up with a better justification than “it works for me” because that doesn’t meet your standards argumentation? Originally Posted by Tal_175
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First of all I hope you don't think a tube amp equates to Twin. Originally Posted by John A.
Needless to say you are allowed to use whatever amp you like.
If someone says I enjoy my tube amps so much more than solid state amps but I rather have a less satisfactory experience when I play gigs for the rest of my life because there is like an 20 pound difference in weight between them, then something doesn't add up for me (barring physical limitations as I said earlier). What can I say?
It would be sad if they actually felt a need to justify that preference to meet the standards of a random poster on the internet. So, no, my remaining skeptical of the true meaning of their assertion does not demand further action. Originally Posted by John A.
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I had to move my 33 pound TM Twin the other day, and when I picked it up my first thought was, "This was DEFINITELY lighter when I got it!" Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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It made sense when I typed it, but I can’t really see the context anymore. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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My ultimate solution came last week in the form of a '42 Epiphone Ritz weighing in at 4lbs 6oz and cordless! (no battery required) its quite loud and the people I play for/with are nearly deaf anyway... On a serious note it would be good to have a thread exploring the new alternatives. Im out of the loop but Im not seeing a lot of info on whats available and works for the "jazz" sound many are looking for. I got a Quilter micro block a while back and was amazed I could plug any of my archtops in driving a 12" Jensen CK and get a quite useable sound, I also put a Joyo American with a nux verb in front and that gave many possibilitys. Ultimately I use my Roland ac 60 with the quilter micro driving the 12 from the sub out and that does the job nicely and if I was inclined to play out pretty easy to move. So thats several solutions for small venue jazz and driving horns. But thats as current as I get Id love to hear the current solutions for good sound and reasonable portability.
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Well, any current offering has to remember the old ones are still available used so better not throw out the old list. The forum does have a marketplace for those wanting to advertise. For a list of current units it should include all relevant competitors.
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I don’t. It was just a somewhat hyperbolic example. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Golly gee, thanks. Originally Posted by Tal_175
First, 20lbs is a lot. Losing 15lbs of amp weight made a difference to me, and I’m not all that decrepit. Originally Posted by Tal_175
As far as what to say goes … I don’t, know … how about “If that works for you, cool.”? Or “Cool, and if you change your mind its’s not like you have to live with an amp choice for the rest of your life”? Otherwise it seems kinda like you’re withdrawing permission. Or building a straw man.
Ah, straw man it is. But if you pull up some quote proving otherwise (please don’t), OK. Originally Posted by Tal_175
I’m someone who went from a really good sounding Princeton Reverb to a maybe not quite as nice sounding Quilter because the Quilter is lighter by an amount that matters to me and is more practical in other ways, even though I do sometimes think the PR sounded better under some conditions.
If you were to ask me to explain the decision in detail, I’d be glad to, but that wouldn’t be “justifying” the choice. If you wouldn’t follow the same reasoning yourself that doesn’t make my reasoning wrong; it just makes it not how you would do it.
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On my gig last Thursday, I carried my Quilter Mach 3 Combo to the bandstand and then, being the good guy I am
, I carried my bandmate's Tonemaster Twin to the bandstand. My amp is 22 pounds, his is 33 pounds. That 11 pound difference was pretty huge to this 67 year old. I would bet that 20 years ago, they would have felt pretty much the same to me. And for what it is worth, my 59 year old bandmate has a vintage Super Reverb that I have not seen in years.
If you need a Twin with tubes to get your sound and you can move it, fantastic! It is hard to beat a Fender Twin with tubes, but in the real world of being on a jazz gig, the Quilter Mach 3 combo does all that I need and much more.
And I would agree with Dawgbone that these amps are kind of "disposable". Up the road, when they need repairs, the cost of repair will probably exceed the value of the amp (and there will be some new amp that will probably be more appealing as well), but for now, these new amps are doing a bang up job.
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Had a double bass gig in the city last night where gear was provided (and food!). It must have been back in the 80s/90s when that last happened. I used a lovely Ashdown combo with ext. speaker. It seemed to love my piezo pickup. The wife drove as close as we could get to the venue but I still had to walk a few 100yd with the bass on my back.
Last edited by garybaldy; 03-03-2025 at 02:45 PM.
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garybaldy, this made all the difference for me back in the day when I was shlepping my 3/4 around the subways of NYC. Pricier now, but still worth it (to me):
Gaines Upright Bass Transport Wheel
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Yes. I first saw those when I did festivals back it the 80s and 90s. I was fit then. I only do the occasion bass gig these days but I think a wheel would be a great help now. Originally Posted by Ukena
garybaldy, this made all the difference for me back in the day when I was shlepping my 3/4 around the subways of NYC. Pricier now, but still worth it (to me):
Gaines Upright Bass Transport Wheel
Edit. ps that is a bit pricey!!
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Sorry if I came across as dismissive in my first post. I wasn't referring to any particular poster on this thread or on the forum in my statement. It was a response to a common internet talking point. Originally Posted by John A.
I actually do have a Quilter Micropro and a Princeton. Quilter is 21 pounds, Princeton is 34 pounds. The difference is 13 pounds. I like both, In fact more often than not, I use the Quilter even when I am practicing.
If someone said to me that they enjoyed the sound of the Princeton more but they always take the Quilter when they perform because of the weight difference of 13 pounds, I would think that there is probably a more likely explanation.There are probably moments when they think that the Princeton sounds better and there are moments when they think the Quilter sounds better. They are more likely to notice the moments Princeton sounds better and give more weight to those observations than the other way around. That's because of the bias that results from the knowledge that one of them is a real tube amp and the other one imitates a tube amp. But their undeniable overall pleasant experience with the Quilter may still tip the scale when it comes to the cost/benefit of the additional weight. That may not describe you. But these sorts of discrepancies between appealing simplistic stories that we use to make sense of the world and our unreliable sensory input is very much part of the human experience. 13 pounds is a small enough difference in weight that makes me suspect the existence of such a discrepancy rather than there actually being a real sacrifice made in the musical experience continuously to save weight.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-02-2025 at 10:08 AM.
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If the shoe fits... Originally Posted by DawgBone
Well, that remains to be seen, doesn't it? At this point I don't know that they're junk, I don't know that they're high profit/low production cost and I don't know that they're a throw away. I am certain that you don't like them and are utterly convinced of the sonic and moral superiority of tube amplification. I play through a buddy's TMDR once a week and it sounds great. At home, my main amp is a tweed Deluxe (so even more curmudgeonly than your Fender Twin). it's loud enough and light enough that it works just fine for any gigs that I'm likely to be playing and if necessary I can put a mic in front of it to the PA. I have a Pro Reverb with two JBL's in and I would have to hire someone to haul it to a gig, at this point. It is no longer a useful amplifier for anything other than playing in my living room. And I don't even use it then, I use the Deluxe. The PR sits in a corner behind the guitar cases and probably hasn't even been switched on in 10 years. I have put it on Craigslist a couple times but nobody wants to pay more than $350 for it and I don't want to sell it that cheap.Fender makes Tonemasters cause it's high profit low production cost junk and people who don't know any better will buy them because they are cheaper than the tube amp it's trying to model. Some guys will buy them because they are lighter. They make a great throwaway, that much is certain. How many will be operating in 50 years? 25 years?
Solid state is taking over. Amplification via small miked amps/DI to the PA is much more normal, Instead of a PA for the vocalist and big, heavy, loud amps for the guitar, bass and keys vainly trying to balance against each other and the drums. And, quite frankly, modern usage usually produces a better end result for the audience. Continuing to rail about it starts to seem like shaking your fist at the sky, after a while.
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I think the objective differences in sound quality between today’s top SS amps and the tube classics are minimal. My Quilter OD202 is every bit as powerful as my Twin. It’s as loud even through the 1x12 BlockDock 12HD (300W Celestion) and sounds every bit as good through a 2x12 open back cab. It’s the equal of an early Boogie except for the added O/D & sustain of the Boogie’s extra gain stage (which is easily added with a ZenDrive or similar effect).
My D V Mark EG250 sounds every bit as good as my Twin through a 2x12 and is as loud. It actually sounds a bit clearer at high volume. Notes are more distinct from my archtops, and their basic acoustic nature comes through more effectively. Jazz guitar through most cranked tube amps gets thunkier and plunkier as the volume goes above the amp’s sweet spot. The high powered Quilters, Henriksens etc seem to me to maintain the same articulate sound to the top of their usable volume.
My Blu 6 is louder and cleaner at higher volume than my ‘76 PR and sounds as good in a different way - both have sonic compromises. String / note definition is better from the Blu, but the PR has a slightly richer and warmer sound. The Blu sounds the same at any volume, but the Princeton’s richness & warmth at lower volumes turns to flab at higher volumes. I’d equate the difference to thin carved archtop with floater vs the CES sound, but not as dramatic.
If players really thought that tube amps sound significantly better, more would use them despite the weight, cost, inconvenience etc. But the difference in sound and feel is very minor while the comparative ease of use of Quilter, Henriksen etc is major. I love my Twin. I love my Princeton. I’m proud to be a working guitarist and I work hard to deliver the best shows I can for my audiences, my employers, my band mates, and myself. If I thought taking my Twin would make me sound better, I’d take it. But I don’t, so I don’t.
My fellow geriatric geezers who feel otherwise might consider a Twin and a “Roadie in a Bottle”. I suspect this would please our own Texas oracle…
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All of this debate regarding modern amps informs me that Dirk may well leave his now dated amp advice on this website in place. If he updated it, everybody will likely be unhappy.
There used to be a consensus on the best amps for jazz guitar. Today? Not so much.
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So the funny part is Jazz Players back when I was young.They never were so gear particular about what they plugged into.
They usually used what was easiest and worked,Lol!
I do think the gear thing came along in my era as Rock,Blues,Fusion became popular (1980 forward).
Also there weren’t the myriad of choices available that we currently have. Plus there are way more consumers of musical gear then when I started out professionally 1976.
Players are so lucky nowadays with such an abundance of great choices. Now gigs and pay?
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A Twin's weight is a non issue if you're strong enough to lift it in and out of car trunk and you have a good cart, which I do.
It's not like I'm carrying it a city block, or bench pressing it
Now if I had to go up a flight of stairs it's a little trickier but I've done it plenty of times, it just takes longer to navigate them.
But those gigs are the exception.
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I thought you’d been using your Vibrolux for a while, ‘moon. Did you go back to the Twin? Originally Posted by wintermoon
A Twin's weight is a non issue if you're strong enough to lift it in and out of car trunk and you have a good cart, which I do.
It's not like I'm carrying it a city block, or bench pressing it
Now if I had to go up a flight of stairs it's a little trickier but I've done it plenty of times, it just takes longer to navigate them.
But those gigs are the exception.
TBH, I’ve been sitting here thinking about taking my Twin to Saturday night’s gig. It’s only a trio date, but we’re on a formal stage in a large auditorium. I need to be sure that I’m not kidding myself about all this. After all, I’m even more geriatric than you are - I’d hate to find out that I’ve just forgotten what it’s like to gig with a Twin
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I did use the '66 Lux for 6 months when I hurt my knee and could barely walk. The knee's still not great but I can walk. But for organ gigs, the majority of my jobs, the Twin just has a bigger sound and cuts through better. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I thought you’d been using your Vibrolux for a while, ‘moon. Did you go back to the Twin?
TBH, I’ve been sitting here thinking about taking my Twin to Saturday night’s gig. It’s only a trio date, but we’re on a formal stage in a large auditorium. I need to be sure that I’m not kidding myself about all this. After all, I’m even more geriatric than you are - I’d hate to find out that I’ve just forgotten what it’s like to gig with a Twin
If you bring your Twin just use a cart, then all you're dealing w is lifting in and out of the car.
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