The (lack of) guitar/archtop market

[John A.]

Amazing that this site has been around for 20 years and we still get the whole "Solid Bodies Can't Hack Jazz" argument now and again.

"Now and again" = "twice a day"

[jim777]

So true.Japanese guitars were laughed at.It wasn't until Ibanez in the mid 70's started doing their Gibson clones that the quality went up exponentially and even then a lot of people would scoff at them until Benson started playing them and gave them legitimacy.

And that was 50 years ago...right around the time when if you wanted a Les Paul you needed to find a store with 10 of them so you could play them all and get 'the good one'.

[2bornot2bop]

Not true. In the 1960's, a lot of poor quality guitars were coming out of Japan. I owned one.

They were a new company. But their production efforts increased by 1974.

And those were exceptional guitars that you missed out on.

But wait a second. Weren’t you like 2 years old in 1960?!

[2bornot2bop]

And that was 50 years ago...right around the time when if you wanted a Les Paul you needed to find a store with 10 of them so you could play them all and get 'the good one'.

[MarkL]

I agree, I still have my 60s japanese 335ish copy which was bottom of the line quality, I had a yamaha fg 180 in the late 60s I wish I still had, it was the poor mans D28 and the guitar I usually brought when we recorded. So Ill rephrase, guitars (and pretty much everything else) coming out of Japan were on par as far back as the mid-late '70s (and earlier in some cases) they dominated everything from cars to motorcycles to electronics to musical instruments. Im still driving a 40yr old corolla

My first guitar was a '60s Univox "335-ish" copy. I've always been a gentle player, but it fell apart after several years. I might have had it longer if I had access to duct tape back then.

[bluejaybill]

Julian is a virtuoso and a master improviser... but not a jazz player. Like Johnny Smith, he's beyond jazz and maybe beyond categorization. And doesn't have to look like jazz.

The Grateful Dead were master improvisers, but they didn't play jazz. And didn't remotely look like jazz.

Your point is well taken here and surely Lage has chosen to move into a stylistic realm all his own.

I did want to add that I saw him last year on two consecutive nights. The first was with his eclectic band, very unique and in its own bag.

The second however he played with a jazz trio. Astounding! Julian Lage can surely play jazz! However, no suit, skinny ties or pork pie hats for him.

[bluejaybill]

Regarding arch tops, I love mine, but if I was still performing I would have to think things through a bit. First of course are the feedback issues.

And second, the versatility issue. Pure jazz gigs are kind of rare. When I was a struggling musician in NYC in my twenties, I had to be ready for any kind of gig that came along, be it jazz, funk, rock, weddings, or whatever. I didn't have the luxury to be a jazz purist, and in truth there are not many that do. The economics of jazz, and indeed music, are such that most need to be more versatile to make a living.

Back then it was an ES for me as my main gig instrument, as well as a strat, a telecaster and a good Martin acoustic. It wasn't at all common for a pro player to own a dozen guitars then, as it is now. Oh, and a Deluxe Reverb for most gigs.

Today, even if big band is your thing, there are often funk tunes in the repertoire, so that might be two guitars on the date. A bass player friend of mine brought an upright, a fretless, and a fretted bass to those gigs- and a separate amp for the upright! Kind of crazy.

Moving forward, I don't really see a day where arch tops are anything but a niche product, though I'd like to be wrong. And for sure they will always be very useful for recording.

[Rickco]

I have always thought jazz had to be played on an archtop, I have a buddie I started playing with as kids in the 60s.
Hes a part time player who could be a session player easily and is always in demand and has played nothing but his melody maker since then. He plays all styles from finger style chord melody to C&W hard bop blues you name it same guitar for everything no pedals, just sayin...if you can really play the guys your playing with and your audience wont give a shit what guitar your playing. I on the other hand have 7 really nice archtop guitars but the phones not ringing.

[Stringswinger]

I have played rock gigs on an archtop and jazz gigs on a plank. The latter is easier by far.....

[Stringswinger]

They were a new company. But their production efforts increased by 1974.

And those were exceptional guitars that you missed out on.

But wait a second. Weren’t you like 2 years old in 1960?!

I turned 3 in 1960. In 1968, I got a slimline Japanese guitar. It was ny first guitar and the action was high enough to double as a cheese slicer.

In 1973 I got my first solid body, a Japanese made lawsuit SG. Years later, I got a real Gibson SG. The Gibson was better by far.

I owned three Ibanez archtops that were made in Japan in the 1980's and 1990's. Those were excellent. But I would still rather play a Gibson.

[RyanM]

Saving up to buy in the next year or two, looking forward to prices coming down!

[sgcim]

Your point is well taken here and surely Lage has chosen to move into a stylistic realm all his own.

I did want to add that I saw him last year on two consecutive nights. The first was with his eclectic band, very unique and in its own bag.

The second however he played with a jazz trio. Astounding! Julian Lage can surely play jazz! However, no suit, skinny ties or pork pie hats for him.

He suffered from focal dystonia, which may or may not have a bearing on what he plays now. All I know is that before the FD, he could play jazz great. The stuff he plays now doesn't interest me.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Today, even if big band is your thing, there are often funk tunes in the repertoire, so that might be two guitars on the date. A bass player friend of mine brought an upright, a fretless, and a fretted bass to those gigs- and a separate amp for the upright! Kind of crazy.

When I joined the union in 1969, we got paid cartage for amps and keyboards. IIRC, it was only $5 per piece, but $5 went a lot further back then and those extras added up over a year. When the gig required that I bring multiple instruments (Wurly, Farfisa or both), I got paid for doubling too. The Union wage schedule had a list of extras, and the office for which I worked did an excellent job of tracking and paying them all.

I played a 175DN for about a decade before buying a new L5CN with a DeArmond pickup in late '69 or early '70. My only amp was a B15N that I'd bought new in the spring of '64 and loved for solo and small group jazz dates. The above-mentioned office (called Music Associates) was the largest Philly area wedding and bar mitzvah band group in the region for about 15 years. I was one of the house guitarists, taking over Chuck Anderson's chair with Lou King when he went to the Latin Casino house band. If available, I also played whenever any of the other leaders who didn't have a regular guitar player needed one.

Rock had already become a staple of the party circuits, but there was still a lot of swing, Latin, etc in our book. I still played an archtop through a B15N for everything, but most of the leaders in the office wanted rock guitar to sound like a rock guitar. I bought an EH LPB-1 to juice up my tone, but I was told by the summer of '70 that I had to get with the program. So I bought a new Kustom 150 and a Tele, and I dragged everything along with me for weddings etc for a while. I also had a D-28 with pickup that leaders liked for specific tunes and gigs - so I often brought 3 guitars and 2 amps. Because the leaders told me to bring all of these, I was paid cartage for them. I soon tired of dragging all that stuff and ended up with a LP Custom and a Twin, which cut my pay by about 10%.

[Rickco]

...not to mention Tedesco could make a ukelele sound like an L5, just sayin...again

[Doctor Jeff]

So true.Japanese guitars were laughed at.It wasn't until Ibanez in the mid 70's started doing their Gibson clones that the quality went up exponentially and even then a lot of people would scoff at them until Benson started playing them and gave them legitimacy.

Yep I think many of us started with Teisco guitars. Mine wasn’t horrible to play, but I didn’t know anything about setup back then. Would love to go back in time and have the thing setup properly and see what I could do with it.

I have been semi-seriously searching for a similar guitar to my first—a Strat-type guitar—since the guitar got lost after a fire at our house caused extensive damage. Just for nostalgia—since I don’t do surf or the Jack White thing at all.

As far as modern Japanese guitars—I have a recent vintage Gretsch which is perfect. I doubt there are many bad archtops coming out of Japan in recent years.

Julian is a virtuoso and a master improviser... but not a jazz player. Like Johnny Smith, he's beyond jazz and maybe beyond categorization. And doesn't have to look like jazz.

The Grateful Dead were master improvisers, but they didn't play jazz. And didn't remotely look like jazz.

I would venture to say some of their stuff went into jazz territory—Eyes of the World, Birdsong, etc. A lot of jazz players have played with the Dead in one form or another, including Branford Marsalis.

I have never seen THE Dead, but I saw Joe Russo’s Almost Dead with Branford last year. It was an excellent show with a lot of jazzy improvisations. I would venture to say that JRAD does the Dead songs better than anyone now, and probably better than 90% of the live recordings I’ve heard of the Dead themselves. (Though when they were “on,” they were awesome.)

[Doctor Jeff]

Catalogue guitars of 1968…

[jim232777]

But you if you go to 3rd and Lindsley on a Monday night you’ll likely hear and see Ranger Doug and/or Andy Reiss playing some killer archtops with The Time Jumpers.

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True, and would be on my todo list for a Nashville trip, but much of it would be different music than the honkytonks on Lower Broadway!