The (lack of) guitar/archtop market

[cmajor9]

I think that archtop guitars have a sound about them that solid bodies cannot match.

In purely practical terms, solidbody and semihollow guitars have it all over archtops. They sound fine, they are ergonomically easy to deal with, their small size makes it easier to tote them to/in/out of gigs and, as Ed Bickert commented about his Telecaster, "it's pretty hard to crush." But archtop guitars have a romance and a mystique about them that solid bodies cannot match.

The pure tone of most solidbodies is by comparison boring, hence the need to dress them up with overdrive and effects.

[jazzloverfat]

The pure tone of most solidbodies is by comparison boring, hence the need to dress them up with overdrive and effects.

De gustibus aside,I think a tube amp will make even a 'lowly' solidbody sound interesting

[Litterick]

When r/jazzguitar asked what is the benefit of an archtop, a wit replied, 'An archtop reassures the restaurant owner that you are indeed there to play jazz.'

[Christian Miller]

Or, alternatively, warns them that you are indeed there to play jazz

[jim777]

Something I (a complete jazz amateur) think about when looking at archtops, is that I pretty much know exactly what a solidbody is going to be like. Teles are all very similar, so are Strats and Les Pauls and what not. I have no idea how close say, a Ribbecke or a Borys would be to my Campellone or my old L5. I could see myself paying a lot for a guitar I simply do not like or cannot get on with at all pretty easily, no matter how nice looking it is because I bought it based simply on the brand or maker's reputation. I'd have no issue buying a familiar solidbody over the Internet sight unseen (for the most part) but for an archtop I would really rather buy it in person so I could see what I'm getting.

So, if you are familiar with archtops and the various brands and their lines, buying a high priced instrument isn't really that much of a gamble. If you're not, they can be more than you're willing to bet without playing first.

[Woody Sound]

Or, alternatively, warns them that you are indeed there to play jazz

[John A.]

I've been out of the market for archtops for about 4 years. I have one that I'm very happy with, and I don't want another, so grains of salt. But just for the heck of it I took a bit of a dive into what's happening with ES-175's on Reverb. There definitely is a market there, but it's way below the asking prices that come up in active listings. The price guide (based on actual selling prices) says you should expect to pay between about $3000 and $3900 for a non-vintage sunburst in excellent condition. A search of active listings with the same filter shows 19 guitars, 12 of which are asking >$4k. For the most part, the higher the asking price, the longer the guitar has been listed. I can't test this hypothesis with the data that Reverb makes available but I suspect that what's going on here is a lot of people bought at the peak of the pandemic buying frenzy and are clinging to the idea that they can sell for what they paid (or more).

To some of the other points under discussion here ...

I regularly go to jam sessions where I see other guitar players, and I attend a fair number of performances by guitarists. I've been doing this for a very long time. I haven't tracked this systematically, but I don't see any change in the mix of of archtop vs semi vs solidbody on bandstands. I think Gibson is probably still the most common brand of archtops and semis, but I see a lot of Eastman, Ibanez, D'Angelico, and Godin at the lower end, and all kinds of boutique brands at the higher end (I'd include Collings, Sadowsky, and Benedetto under that rubric).

I have an archtop (a Seventy Seven), a D'Angelico semi (very 335-like), a Les Paul with P90s, and a Strat. I play them all. I tend to play the archtop more than the others for jazz, but they all work, and I enjoy switching off and experimenting. They don't all sound the same, but if they did there would be no point in having more than one.

[MarkL]

if you can wait, that might work. These things do seem to be cyclical.


In purely practical terms, solidbody and semihollow guitars have it all over archtops. They sound fine, they are ergonomically easy to deal with, their small size makes it easier to tote them to/in/out of gigs and, as Ed Bickert commented about his Telecaster, "it's pretty hard to crush." . . . I play jazz on an archtop and I play it on a Tele sometimes, but I'm aware that latter just does not look much like jazz even though it's profoundly practical and a nice sounding and playing instrument. I'm going to go play at 5:00 and, because it's almost 0F outside, I'll probably take the Telecaster instead of my arch top.

Sure, it's possible to play jazz on guitars other than archtops. We all have personal preferences. Aside from Ed Bickert - Joe Pass played a Jaguar for a little while (though apparently not by choice), Les Paul played (wait for it... ) Les Pauls, and some modern players who can play whatever they want (Scofield, Stern, etc.) play non-archtops. I'm not sure that directly that affects the archtop market. Also, prices of other guitars such as American-made and vintage Fender and Gibson non-archtops have also gone up over the long haul.

Reiterating earlier thoughts, we seem to currently be at a point where prices have run up and then demand eased, resulting in a stagnant market. The market may stay stagnant, prices may ease if sellers feel motivated, or conditions may solidify the market and cause prices to increase. It will be interesting to see what the next 6/12/18 months bring.

[2bornot2bop]

How can prices increase when guitars are already overpriced?!

All these sellers act like they’re attempting to cash in because certain guitars are no longer being produced.

If you price it right it will sell. If you advertise it for display purposes only you deserve to never find a buyer.

[Doctor Jeff]

When r/jazzguitar asked what is the benefit of an archtop, a wit replied, 'An archtop reassures the restaurant owner that you are indeed there to play jazz.'

Somewhat related--I was in Nashville last week, and visited the famous Lower Broadway area of Nashville. About 30 honkytonks in a couple of blocks, with music going on all 3 floors.

I would venture to say every single band with an electric guitarist had a Tele. At least I didn't notice anything else.

Gibson Hummingbirds also seem to be the acoustic of choice, though more variety there.

Imagine walking into a honky tonk with an L5...you'd be laughed out.

[Rickco]

Im no economist, but it seems to me its like the commodities markets with fluctuations due to a variety of causes. I dont think you can predict the drivers of the future, music styles, star popularity, effect of social media...etc. I still have a 50oz bar of silver I bought in the '70s when Hunt was manipulating the market, point is all buying for future value is speculation. As an older player I dont need to think about that as I wont be around to "time" the market for best returns. Now Im playing my life long fantasy guitars and dont care at all about investment but...if I was a younger player Id be buying actively. The younger players dont have the romantic attachment to brands like Gibson as many older players. Fact is you can get a semihollow or electric (mounted pickup) archtop at almost any price point many that are every bit as good or better. The asian manufactures are getting better and better. The Japanese guitars have always been on par for quality with American. Now the archtop laminated guitars from Korea are every bit as good as their US cousins Im playing a '60s Guild Starfire and T50 right next to '23 models from Korea which are as good or better in every detail, Ive also compared them to vintage Gibson and Epi 125t/422t different sound and neck but from a quality of build just as good, all other things being personal preferance. A truly fine carved acoustic is a work of art and should be priced that way however just as one example Heritage still makes the Eagle of which a few Ive heard were exeptional at a comparably fair price and there are others. Im pretty sure Warren Buffett wouldnt recomend guitar futures as solid investments. Buy them to play them, take the hit if you move one out and lose, if your a guitar player this should come as common sense, if your an investor you might want to diversify your portfolio.

[John A.]

How can prices increase when guitars are already overpriced?!

All these sellers act like they’re attempting to cash in because certain guitars are no longer being produced.

If you price it right it will sell. If you advertise it for display purposes only you deserve to never find a buyer.

A friend of mine bought a bunch of guitars a over the last 4-5 years because his business was doing well and he wanted treat himself. Now it's not going so well, he's thinking about retiring, and feels like he doesn't really need all that stuff, so he's selling. He has a couple of archtops on Reverb that are at the very high end of what people are asking for these models because he wants to get out what he put in and he's got a bit of wishful thinking going on wrt to asking prices. Nothing nefarious or exploitive. I think this is a common situation.

[Stringswinger]

The Japanese guitars have always been on par for quality with American.

Not true. In the 1960's, a lot of poor quality guitars were coming out of Japan. I owned one.

[JazzNote]

De gustibus aside,I think a tube amp will make even a 'lowly' solidbody sound interesting

I got calls twice from jazzclubs in my area who wanted to borrow my TwinReverb because players asked for it. One of them was Lorne Lofsky who sounded good with his low budget Ibanez solidbody which was upgraded with better PU's only.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Somewhat related--I was in Nashville last week, and visited the famous Lower Broadway area of Nashville. About 30 honkytonks in a couple of blocks, with music going on all 3 floors.

I would venture to say every single band with an electric guitarist had a Tele. At least I didn't notice anything else.

Gibson Hummingbirds also seem to be the acoustic of choice, though more variety there.

Imagine walking into a honky tonk with an L5...you'd be laughed out.

But you if you go to 3rd and Lindsley on a Monday night you’ll likely hear and see Ranger Doug and/or Andy Reiss playing some killer archtops with The Time Jumpers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nyc chaz]

Not true. In the 1960's, a lot of poor quality guitars were coming out of Japan. I owned one.

So true.Japanese guitars were laughed at.It wasn't until Ibanez in the mid 70's started doing their Gibson clones that the quality went up exponentially and even then a lot of people would scoff at them until Benson started playing them and gave them legitimacy.

[Litterick]

A friend of mine bought a bunch of guitars a over the last 4-5 years because his business was doing well and he wanted treat himself. Now it's not going so well, he's thinking about retiring, and feels like he doesn't really need all that stuff, so he's selling. He has a couple of archtops on Reverb that are at the very high end of what people are asking for these models because he wants to get out what he put in and he's got a bit of wishful thinking going on wrt to asking prices. Nothing nefarious or exploitive. I think this is a common situation.

Endowment effect: "an emotional bias that causes individuals to value an owned object higher, often irrationally, than its market value."

[deacon Mark]

Today I put a new set of Monel Stings on my Ghost Build Heritage D'angelico NY... I have never had those strings on the guitar so was interested to hearing the difference. I have to say that doing this on anything, but an acoustic guitar is just not the same. That is to me the real benefit of an acoustic archtop and even a laminate because 175 sounds very different through and amp with different strings. Get the thunk with flatwounds or a very different sound with round.

It might a market thing but long years of playing much goes on that the younger players have not got around to experiencing.

[Rickco]

So true.Japanese guitars were laughed at.It wasn't until Ibanez in the mid 70's started doing their Gibson clones that the quality went up exponentially and even then a lot of people would scoff at them until Benson started playing them and gave them legitimacy.

I agree, I still have my 60s japanese 335ish copy which was bottom of the line quality, I had a yamaha fg 180 in the late 60s I wish I still had, it was the poor mans D28 and the guitar I usually brought when we recorded. So Ill rephrase, guitars (and pretty much everything else) coming out of Japan were on par as far back as the mid-late '70s (and earlier in some cases) they dominated everything from cars to motorcycles to electronics to musical instruments. Im still driving a 40yr old corolla

[Cunamara]

Attachment 120551

Honestly, I find this view quite shallow. It's not the looks but the sound that makes teh jazz, no? I get it's the old guard's take on things, I have the same argument with my guitar teacher, while he doesn't have anything against my solidbodies, he keeps telling me I need at least a semihollow to play teh jazz ¯\_("/)_/¯
I almost bought a Hello Kitty Squire just to make a point and poke some fun, thank god they sold out in record time xD

Also, I do get the dressing up part (I do have bespoke stuff I like to wear) but I don't see that as anything else other than an accessory in this context which won't tell me anything about the quality and virtuosity of an artist.

Julian is a virtuoso and a master improviser... but not a jazz player. Like Johnny Smith, he's beyond jazz and maybe beyond categorization. And doesn't have to look like jazz.

The Grateful Dead were master improvisers, but they didn't play jazz. And didn't remotely look like jazz.

[Cunamara]

The pure tone of most solidbodies is by comparison boring, hence the need to dress them up with overdrive and effects.

Tell it to Ed Bickert (who did manage to look like jazz with a Tele).

[Cunamara]

A friend of mine bought a bunch of guitars a over the last 4-5 years because his business was doing well and he wanted treat himself. Now it's not going so well, he's thinking about retiring, and feels like he doesn't really need all that stuff, so he's selling. He has a couple of archtops on Reverb that are at the very high end of what people are asking for these models because he wants to get out what he put in and he's got a bit of wishful thinking going on wrt to asking prices. Nothing nefarious or exploitive. I think this is a common situation.

There is a belief that fine guitars never go down in value; and a belief that I should never have to lose money on a guitar...

[pamosmusic]

Tell it to Ed Bickert (who did manage to look like jazz with a Tele).

Amazing that this site has been around for 20 years and we still get the whole "Solid Bodies Can't Hack Jazz" argument now and again.

[Cunamara]

I got calls twice from jazzclubs in my area who wanted to borrow my TwinReverb because players asked for it. One of them was Lorne Lofsky who sounded good with his low budget Ibanez solidbody which was upgraded with better PU's only.

That was the top of the line for the Roadstar series. He has two.

[JazzNote]

That was the top of the line for the Roadstar series. He has two.

Ooops, so i was wrong believing "low budget". How much did they go for?