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A number of you have bought the Cub so I’d love to hear your thoughts about it and your recommendations for a path forward.
I have had a Quilter MP-200 8 for about 10 years. It’s been to Quilter for repairs twice. (Excellent service...) It sounds lush to my ears: round bottom end and clear top end but no edge on it. More Wes than Kenny on the Full Q setting.
I was thinking about getting the extension speaker cabinet but I am hesitant - I would have to carry two boxes (the amp and the cab). Not ideal…
I played the Tone Master Deluxe Reverb and liked it. It doesn’t have Full Q setting but I bet my tone is in there somewhere.
A few of you mention you own the Cub and have played / own the TMDR so I’d love to hear your opinions and comparisons. Thanks!
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01-04-2025 02:05 PM
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I tried both side by side. I thought the TMDR does the actual Deluxe Reverb tone somewhat better, but the Quilter is close, and I really like the tweed input, which the TMDR does not do. That, plus a useful master volume, more volume/headroom if needed, mid control, and it being smaller and lighter tipped the scales for me, and I bought the Quilter. At the time I had a really nice SF Princeton Reverb. I'd say that has a certain something in the high frequencies that the Quilter doesn't quite nail on its BF setting, but the difference is not huge. As with the TMDR)., the Quilter is overall a more useful amp for me, so I sold the the PR (and netted about a grand). That was about a year ago, and no regrets so far.
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I own a Quilter Aviator Cub Mach 3 and I compared it to a Fender Tonemaster Twin. The Quilter won (which is why I have the Quilter
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The Quilter has more tonal options, it is lighter and Quilter being a smaller company, I hear better things about their customer service.
Does either replicate a real tube amp? No. But on the bandstand, I seriously doubt one could hear that. In your living room or the studio, I suppose some will still want the real thing. Just remember to keep a supply of good tubes and hope that that studio has parking.
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Thank you for your thoughts John A. In his review of the Aviator Cub, Rich Severson says he prefers the Tweed setting, too. How would you characterize the Tweed and how does it differ from the Black (which I presume is the only setting on the Deluxe Reverb)?
Originally Posted by John A.
Last edited by Bflat233; 01-04-2025 at 08:49 PM.
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Thanks, StringSwinger. I've been looking at the Cub (single channel, 3 Fender tone inputs: Tweed, Blonde, Black). By chance, there was a Cub Mach 3 in the room next to the TMDR so I tried it. Two channels, the 3 Fender tone options in the Cub standard, plus 3 more. Plus lots of capacity to dial-in the tone you like. Full Q was not one of the options. Is one of the additional voices (Flexi, Sweet, Top Boost) close to the Full Q? Which of these six do you use when you're playing standard in a small combo? Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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Depending on the room and the guitar I choose, I might use any of the six settings. I usually run a sound check trying all six to see which one floats my boat on that day. Originally Posted by Bflat233
It is nice to have options.
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Try and find an older used Quilter Aviator 1x 12” Combo. Gen 1 or 2 It’s about the size of a Deluxe Reverb and has way more clean headroom. You can always swap the speaker to your liking as well!
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Thanks, I'll check it out. Originally Posted by jads57
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The tweed input has more midrange and gain than the blackface and can get more distortion/overdrive. This mirrors the difference between classic Fender tweed and blackface designs. Originally Posted by Bflat233
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”Full Q” is not a specific sound - it could refer to a number of things. The Q of an amplifier is measured on its “load line”, which (in simple terms) is a graph of voltage at the power output devices vs output current at rated maximum (ie the output power at rated distortion). The class of amplifier operation (A, B, A/B) is determined by this parameter, and amps are designed around it. Bias voltage sets the idle current at the signal control element in the output device(s). A class A amp has full voltage at the output devices even when there’s no input signal, which is why they’re so inefficient (ie consume so much more power than they put out in watts): Originally Posted by Bflat233
Then there’s the Q of a filter, which is a measure of how tall and narrow a parameter’s peak is compared to a flat line. Higher Q means a taller, narrower peak, but this can be a peak in any frequency range. And there’s really no such thing as full Q unless it would be an infinitely tall peak of zero width (which would not be possible to achieve).
I’ve had 5 Quilter amps, and my current “big” gigging one is an OD202. I’ve tried hard to learn exactly what the Q control or setting affects on the Quilters that have one. So far, I’ve been unsuccessful at finding out.
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Interesting! I never considered the science behind the tone. I presumed the Q stood for Pat’s signature tone. Full Q = Full Quilter. It’s the default setting on my Microprocessor-8. Here’s how the modes on the amp are described in the manual: Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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You’re probably right about the derivation of the term. But it’s not a setting you’ll find on other amps because it’s not a standard engineering, sonic or electronic term, or a specification like “flat”, “scooped mid”, X% THD etc. Originally Posted by Bflat233
“The full development of the Quilter sound” is obviously defined by a proprietary set of specs for everything from frequency response to the amp’s operating parameters - but neither we nor other amp makers know exactly what it is. So you won’t find it as a setting on other makers’ amps, although you might luck onto it by tweaking all the controls enough. Even if Quilter was able to patent the specific circuit that produces it and/or to trademark the term “full Q”, anyone can label a pot or switch as controlling Q if it actually adjusts something like frequency response curve. Almost every parametric equalizer has Q controls on its filters.
But don’t look for a full Q setting on other amps. One man’s Q is another’s EQ…….
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I've posted about my Aviator Cub before, however I'll chime in. For many years and gigs I've been a Evans fan, still am, I have a JE200 from the mid 2000's.
I would add that the application is a guitar/horn duo in (usually) smaller venues. I plug my 1990 Benedetto Cremona with a Bartolini floating P/U directly into the amp, no pedals. Amp gets lined out to FOH. The Evans weighs about 38 lbs.
I've had a shoulder injury a couple years ago (hit a cow on my Ducati) and started looking around for something lighter. Cut to the chase, the Cub sounded best to my ears in the Tweed input, simple to operate, and 20 or so pounds.
A-B between the Evans and Quilter-well the Evans sounds better. But I can get the Cub about 90% close to the Evans. If we've got a bigger venue, outdoor gig, festival etc. the Evans still gets the call. But the Cub is great for smaller venues, private parties and such.
I've only played a TMD in the store, it wasn't with my Benedetto. It seemed very good.
We don't play very loud....
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Thanks, SierraTango. So you are also using the Tweed input. This is noteworthy. I would have thought the Black would get the most use by jazz guitar players. Originally Posted by SierraTango
Could it be that the Tweed delivers a tone similar to what we hear in recordings by Jim Hall and Tal Farlow - a woodier, crisper tone, with short decay? While the Black delivers a tone we might describe as closer to what Wes Montgomery and Pat Martino were getting - that is, more sustain, more bottom, tone rolled off? I realize these characterizations are subjective, so feel free to weigh in with ones that resonate with what you're hearing.
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Right - and now it's no longer available on their own amps. Seems it was a feature limited to the Micropro-200 series and the Tone Block 201. Maybe I'm the only guitar player on the planet that used it exclusively... to a fault, is a better way of saying it. As a result of my current quest for a New Amp Day, I've started using the Tweed (50s) and Classic (60s) setting on my MP-200-8 and I'm surprised by the differentiation in these settings. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
WRT to the original topic: with the Fender Tone Master Deluxe - you have to live with the Black setting. The Blonde edition swaps out the Jensen speaker for a Celestion, which is apparently the speaker of choice among the rock and country guitarists because it has less headroom and breaks up earlier.
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Hi Bflat. I play ToneBlock 202. It has FullQ, Vintage & FRFR voices. Vintage on this is BlackFace. I don't have a Quilter with Tweed, but I have a feeling FullQ may be similar. IE less scoop. More lower mid. I'd call it bigger or fuller sound with less glassy highs. Probably has them, but more mid makes them less forward.
If you haven't run into it, this is a pretty good discussion about TB202 and Quilter voice settings and tone stacks. It has that Tim Lerch demo of TB202 FullQ.
I also ran into this recently. About 4mins in he uses a Super400. Actual Jazz demo.
I realize TB202 in BlockDock12 is a lot more amp than you're looking for, with a hefty cost increase over the Cub. But I have a feeling they're similar tone wise. I've never played a Cub. I'd go for that myself if I didn't have what I have.
An aside: As odd as it might seem, I use FRFR mainly. I got that from our old friend JazzKritter. More of a Heinrickson or Polytone thing going on. Like StringSwing, I flip the switch quite a bit and can always get something I like depending on mood.
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It's still there. The Tone Block 202 and the OD202 both have it. It's called Voice 1 on the OD202, but the manual says it's the same "Quilter classic full Q". It's interesting that FRFR is used differently on different Quilter models. It's a cab sim on the SBUS that it only affects the XLR and headphone outs. Originally Posted by Bflat233
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Glad you've dived in here, CCroft! I may come full circle and wind up with your extension cab!
The TB202 is still in production, too, which is nice. I presume you're using a BlockDock of one sort or another? I'll dive into that thread.
Andy's video is the best demo I've seen of these amps. He uses the three common jazz guitars. The tones in the TB202 are very likely similar to the tones in the Cub. And, given that the consensus that the TMDR achieves 97% of the DRRI, it is a reasonable facsimile of the TMDR.
PS: I think this is the same Andy who is selling a '63 re-issue ES-335 on the Forum right now. Wicked guitar...
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That is excellent news - thank you! Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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This is a "to each their own" kind of situation. Personally, I would not use the typical blackface tone for jazz. With the scooped mids, it is designed to emphasize bass and treble and allow more volume while maintaining a semblance of clean tone. When I have played through one of these amps, I thought that the tone ended up being a bit thin and clangy for my tastes, but if I was playing country or something like that I might feel differently. I have a silverface Fender Pro Reverb that I've owned for nearly 40 years and haven't even actually turned on in probably close to a decade. It's been out of the house for a gig once in the last 25 years because it weighs just too darn much to tote around without hurting myself. I find the silverface amps to sound less mid scooped (although still very mid scooped). The top end is a little rounder. Originally Posted by Bflat233
I have settled on a 5E3 tweed Deluxe clone for 10 to 15 years now. Small, fairly lightweight, has a nice big fat sound (Cannabis Rex 12 inch speaker) and it just works for me. So whenever I'm looking at some sort of amplification and there's an indication of a "tweed" setting, that's the one I start with.
A funny thing about guitarists. We tend to firmly believe that older = better. I remember back in the 1980s and everybody complained about how crappy Gibson and Fender guitars of the era were; now those are vintage and therefore "better."
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That's a great explanation, Cunarmara. Thank you. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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The money that 70's Strats and Lesters now sell for blows my mind. You can buy a newer Strat or Lester for much less, and get a way better guitar. Originally Posted by Cunamara
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3 bolts??? What's wrong with CBS? These are terrible! It'll be end of Fender! Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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OK CCroft I am surprised! Reading the TB202 thread you seemed to be a Full Q disciple. As well as a TB202 early adopter. So you have since left it for FRFR. And would consider the Cub if you didn’t own … which Quilter amp? The Aviator, the TB/BD? This inquiring mind wants to know! Originally Posted by ccroft
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I don't know who uses what most. There are people who like the scooped Fender BF/Sound, people who prefer more mids (e.g., tweed, Polytone, Ampeg, DV Mark LJ), and people who like a neutral PA-like sound (e.g., Henriksen, AER) Originally Posted by Bflat233
The tweed input delivers more mid range and more potential for overdrive. I wouldn't say "crispness" or "woodiness" (which, as near as I can tell, people associate with a clean, almost acoustic sound), because that's not the way early Hall or Farlow sound to me. But, yes, the tweed input is something like '50s and early '60s jazz recordings because tweed and similar amps (e.g., Hall's Gibson) is what existed and was used on those recordings. The first BF amps didn't hit until 1964. Originally Posted by Bflat233
Beyond that, if you want to get into why one player or another sounded they way they did, you have to go almost recording by recording, because there's a lot of difference in sound, and lot of difference in equipment. Plus, much of the time these guys were using whatever was in the studio or was available to them (e.g., Wes borrowing Kenny Burrell's gear on a Incredible jazz guitar, most NY recordings being done on Ampegs). Or something like Tal Farlow's amp in a bar-stool set-up in later years.Last edited by John A.; 01-06-2025 at 02:03 PM.
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