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Since this thread has been so helpful on the speaker choice - does anyone have any good references for cab building I should check out? I’m an experienced woodworker so the joinery is not a problem just wondering about design considerations. Going for an open back 1x12”
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12-15-2024 09:19 AM
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I think a bit more specificity is needed here, G. We use the term “speaker” very loosely to mean either a bare driver or a loaded cabinet. But the latter is technically a speaker system comprised of driver plus cabinet plus designed-in room interaction.
Originally Posted by Gitterbug
Guitar speaker “systems” are not supposed to be neutral and linear. As you point out, the cab works with the driver to create the voice we hear in the playing environment. But this also applies to PA & other “FRFR” speakers. Regardless of the number of drivers in the system, none of those drivers is itself truly neutral or linear.
FRFR requires a carefully designed and built combination of driver(s), crossover(s), baffle, cabinet, grille, grille covering, etc. Look at single driver systems (eg the KEF LS50, which sounds really good) and those using multiple identical drivers (like the Bose 801 and successors, which IMO sounded truly terrible for audio use but made decent sound reinforcement speakers when used “backwards with drivers facing the audience). The actual speakers in them are far from flat (ie +/-3 dB over the usable audio spectrum) or linear (ie having a uniform slope of X dB per octave upward or downward).
Whether self-contained or an assemblage of components, FRFR systems used for live instrument amplification with a modeler are powered and include integral crossovers and amplification to achieve a flat and linear frequency response. Again, it’s not the “speakers” (ie the drivers) that are linear, it’s the combined output of the entire system.
Here, we have to separate live performance from sound reinforcement. Amps and speakers are as much a part of our instruments as are our guitars. Their characteristics, colorations, and nonlinearities shape the sound of our playing. When playing an L5 through a Deluxe, the interface between player and audience is at the sound emitting surface(s) of that Deluxe. The sonic character of the amp and speakers becomes part of the signal as it emerges from the speaker toward the listener or microphone - it happens in the cabinet after amplification of the signal’s power. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
But when that L5 is played through a modeled Deluxe (amp and speaker/cab), that character enters the signal after initial voltage amplification (“pre amplification”) but before power amplification - it happens in the electronics before it gets to the power amplification and speakers. So it’s now the job of the power amplification and speaker system to make it louder without changing its sonic character at all.
Sound reinforcement systems for live performance have the same job - they make the sound of the instruments louder without altering its character. They just do it externally. But here too, the drivers themselves are far from FRFR.
Like Freud allegedly said, sometimes a speaker is just a driver
Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 12-15-2024 at 10:37 AM.
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Minimal coloring versus flat would be a better.term then. And since I switch between quite different instruments that recommendation works well. It is easy to get into a specific guitar speaker voicing that actually becomes a 1 trick pony, I don't have enough roadies to carry a different amp for each instrument.
On the Deltalite II I do prefer the 2515 which has more low end, but it is larger.
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Just get one of these - an old EV SRO. EV has not made the AlNiCo SRO for over 50 years, but they are easy enough to find. 7 1/2" deep, and on the heavy side (16 lbs.), but they sound great.
Last edited by Hammertone; 12-15-2024 at 06:47 PM.
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I have 12” Jensen Tornado in an open back cabinet and it seems to have plenty of bass. With a Fender-type tone stack I keep the bass control dialed back. The light weight of the neo magnet makes transport much easier. Originally Posted by jads57
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I may have been loose in terminology, but since the OP has a Milkman amp and intends to build a cab around a speaker/driver/transducer, for which he asks advice, I mean speakers when I speak of them. Predictably, the suggestions are all over the chart, because our tastes differ. So do speakers: Celestion currently lists 32 12" variants, Jensen 21, not counting different impedance versions. A video comparing all Celestions lasts six hours. A few posts ago the OP asked about cab designs but has received zero advice here. As Never... suggests, it's just as important as the speaker. In fact, one could argue that deciding on the cab architecture (open/closed/ported; volume, bracing etc.) should precede the speaker selection.
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Yes it is especially important that we personally reference speakers we have actually tried. Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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I don't think the magnet composition has anything to do with cabinet design. One major determinant of optimal cabinet design is the Qts of a speaker. The Jensen N12K neo has a Qts of 1.04 (8 Ohms) / 1.1 (16 Ohms), which is high. A Tornado neo 12 Stealth 80 has a Qts of 0.7 (medium) and an Eminence KappaLite 3012HD has a Qts of 0.3 (low). Originally Posted by jads57
This web page from Eminence explains it well. Although there's some disagreement over the exact values from different makers, the general concept seems to work well and is summed up like this:"Qts of 0.4 or below indicates a transducer well suited to a vented enclosure. Qts between 0.4 and 0.7 indicates suitability for a sealed enclosure. Qts of 0.7 or above indicates suitability for free-air or infinite baffle applications."
Another parameter with significant relationship to cabinet design is the Fs (free air resonance) of the driver because cabinet design affects response around that frequency. Guitar speakers with Fs above about 90 Hz generally do better in sealed cabinets. An Fs under 70 suggests that a tuned ported cabinet would probably work best, with a semi-open or open back most often used for speakes with an Fs between 70 and 90 Hz.
But the interplay between Qts and Fs also matters. Speakers with a low Q (which is a measure of how well damped the actual speaker cone & voice coil mechanism are mechanically) do better in sealed or vented cabinets because they need the air in the sealed cabinet to act as a spring to damp cone motion (to which a well damped port also contributes). And speakers with a relatively high Fs also do better in sealed cabinets. But the Eminence KappaLite 12 has a low Q (0.32) and a low Fs (about 37) - so it doesn't conform to the Eminence rule of thumb. There's no hard anf fast rule about cabinet design and driver parameters. It's as much art as science, so you can't generalize too broadly.
The above should explain this. I have neos in open, ported, and sealed cabs and they all sound fine. They're well matched to the cabinets. Originally Posted by KirkP
Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 12-15-2024 at 11:59 PM.
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The Jensen C12k and N12k look to fit your bill.
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The overall Q of the speaker, Qts depends on both the electrical Qes and the mechanical Qms*. Qms is usually quite high for guitar speakers so Qes is very influential. Qes is quoted with the speaker driven by a low output impedance amplifier but it actually depends on the total resistance in the voice coil circuit, increasing as the resistance is made larger. Most solid state amps have a low output resistance so the quoted Qes is valid but many tube amps have a higher (or much higher if they don't use feedback) output resistance. This raises the overall Q and causes a peak in the speaker response at the cone resonance. This is one reason why tube amps will often sound warmer and is also why small open back tube combos can have a reasonable low frequency response.
* Qts = 1/(1/Qes + 1/Qms) = (Qes * Qms)/(Qes + Qms)
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I recommend You to do the Tweed Deluxe cabin. Easy to do, plans are all over the web. Shellac’d tweed is a joy to watch and joy to do! And when made from pine it is easy to carry. Originally Posted by drbhrb
I think that the Tweed Deluxe cabin is smallest cabinet the does NOT sound boxy. Good luck!
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Just a few 2-cents: Originally Posted by drbhrb
1. use solid pine for the box, and void-free plywood for the baffle - this will keep even a larger box quite light;
2. inset the handle on the top so that heads will sit flat;
3. use standard dimensions, so that standard heads will fit on the top of the box;
4. do not go too small or it will start to sound boxy - I wouldn't go smaller than Fender Deluxe Reverb (9.5" x 24.5" x 17.5"). That's actually a great size, IMO. You can go a bit deeper. You can lower the height a bit because there's no need for room for the amp built into the box. I'd keep the box rectilinear and not angle the front, to give you more room for heads that might be a bit deeper than Fender heads.Last edited by Hammertone; 12-17-2024 at 06:37 PM.
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Well I’m no design expert or even able to figure out the actual spec sheets of speakers. But I know what works for me on different gigs.
And every time I owned both The Jensen Neo 12 100 as well as the Tornado Neo 100 speakers.
I found them to be not as full sounding as other speakers I have used. EV12L,JBL E120, as well as various Celestions, WGS ET90,Blackhawk 100 Alnico,etc.
I think Neodymium speakers just don’t pack the same punch for their wattage ratings as more traditional magnets do. But it’s great to have a lighter weight alternative for sure!
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How did you like the blackhawk 100's? I had looked at those but have never owned any WGS stuff Originally Posted by jads57
Also, anyone try the Jensen Alnico Blackbird 100's?
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I once had a Blackhawk in my 5E3. Very bass heavy. Or extensively full, in other words. I ended up selling it and buying a Weber 12A125. Originally Posted by DawgBone
I have BB100 at the moment in a small combo with Quilter Tone Block 202. I wanted an alnico and high powered alnicos are not many.
I had a Celestion Alnico Cream in it for long but started to miss more Fendery alnico sounds and ended to BB100. I have a BB40 in my Deluxe Reverb clone and I love both.
I don’t play loud (where can anyone play loud nowadays?!) and I play only rock with these amps. For jazz I have a small combo with a Quilter TB202 and a Eminence Beta 8A.
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What are your impressions of the blackbird? I've looked at those many times cause of the alnico+power handling. There are a few places I can still get loud. Jazz guitar forum is just one of them, lol. Originally Posted by Herbie
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I have not compared it systematically with other speakers but before it I had a Jensen P12N and the change to BB100 wasn't as big as I feared. Originally Posted by DawgBone
BB100 has a reputation to be a shredder speaker (I think) but my sound hasn't changed to modern heavy with it! Nor my fastness!
Maybe it is not as "loose" as Jensen's lower power alnicos if I try to find differences. But if I just play I don't think looseness/stiffness.
And the BB100 is not at all darker than the P12N or BB40, it has clear nice alnico high end.Last edited by Herbie; 12-19-2024 at 11:25 AM.
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I have been using/offering Tornados and Blackbirds, both 10" and 12". The Blackbirds are more Fender-y, and some people with golden ears find them a match to Celestion Gold. I think that, for jazz, both 10" Jensens are simply great, with the Tornado slightly ahead on my list. Blackbirds are slightly less sensitive, but in practice just as loud and perhaps more separating. In the 12" category there's much more to choose from of course, and they set the standard for overdriven sounds. it's my understanding that the Tornado Classic is the best-selling 12" Neo. I wouldn't overemphasize the bass end. Too much of it easily gets muddy, and it's the bassist's airspace anyway. If I add some walking bass lines to my "skeleton chords" comping, I get glimpses from the bassist.
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He's just wondering why he can't play the great lines & grooves he hears from you Originally Posted by Gitterbug
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Again we all have our preferences in tone and what works best. Speaking for me Neodymium speakers just don’t have the same
fullness in tone. I have always preferred a very Stout Speaker in wattage as well as tone profile.
The WGS Blackhawk 100Alnico is nice sounding,but a bit earlier breakup than I prefer. But when paired with The WGS ET90 it combines to have the best of both worlds for me.
I also have a Quilter Generation 1 1x12” combo that I had modified to accompany a 12” and an 8” baffle.
Im using a Celestion B300-12 8 ohm along with a Celestion TF808-8” speaker. With this combo I have huge Clean headroom and can play large venues with ease. I use a Quilter Aviator gen 1 1x8” combo for smaller gigs and rehearsal.
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