The New Ibanez Pat Metheny PM3C Model

[garybaldy]

Seem like the whole design of the pickup is quite different from the original. The place and even the size and the shape of the magnet needed might be totally different, so I am not sure this can be modded to the "original" way.

I wrote "original" because according Adrian Ingram (in his ES-175 -book) their specs were all around:

"Recreating the original Charlie Christian pickup presented something of a problem in that the specifications of earlier units differed with each production run.

The magnets were initially cast in Cobalt but went on to use an amalgamation which differed as significantly as 17% cobalt, 83% nickel to 36% cobalt, 64% nickel.

Furthermore, the range of windings varied greatly, as can be seen from the following specifications: variant 1, 4,000 turns of number 38 wire; variant 2, 2,500 turns of number 40 wire; variant 3, 3,600 turns of 40 wire; variant 4, 10,000 turns of number 42 wire."

Would one know which variant one had without pulling it apart?

[JFranck]

True! Daniel Slaman uses replicas made upon his request by CC PU UK, a small company specialized in CC PU.

Indeed, purely aesthetic

Yes, they could have done that. A thing to consider is the weight of a real CC replica but in general it's not a problem to install onto a laminated tabletop.

They sound very good but it's not a real genuine CC sound, by far.

My 1938 ES-150 still has its original CC PU and it blows up any amp. But it's true that they lose strength over the years. When you're ordering a CC PU to CC PU UK, you can ask for a full magnetic charge, as if your PU was released off the factory, or for a demagnetized version, as if your PU had aged over 80+ years.

Cheers.

Fred
I agree with most of what you say.

- On Daniel Slaman site he advertises a CC PU option for 250€ developped with Dirk van der Meij (Dutch engeener?). Originaly he used Brit ccpu reissues but I don’t know if it is still the case.
Is CCPU UK co. still active ? You can see here and there threads of people having had no answer to their mails but I have no personnal experience.
- I can’t say wether the Biltoft PU sounds like a Gibson CC as mine is on a Tele : comparing apples and oranges



- I remember comparing 3 ES150, none of them sounded strictly the same .
When I compare my ES150 with my Recording King they sound slightly different but the PU is not placed the same. I bought a ES100 (just before the pandemics and the skyrocketing prices) and it differs also ; the pickups front plate color and shape are not the same but i’m not sure that it’s what changes the sound
more seriously pu’s were made by hand, the number of turns could differ, and the wire dimensions that changed over the years, the placement of the pu, the shape of the body...
- I bought my ES175cc from a friend . He always told me that he had changed it under waranty because of cracks appearing on the sides, but he prefered the sound of the first one !

[Herbie]

Would one know which variant one had without pulling it apart?

Hmm… variant of what? Pickup or a magnet?

I suppose that without some pro devices and skills nobody can tell exactly what magnet is what. I think I can tell the difference of an alnico and ceramic magnet (the ceramic one cracks, alnico doesn’t) but telling different alnicos from each other is impossible. That’s why I write it to them with a marker when I buy new ones!

And ancient ”steel cobalt” magnets – I have even never seen one.

[garybaldy]

Hmm… variant of what? Pickup or a magnet?

I suppose that without some pro devices and skills nobody can tell exactly what magnet is what. I think I can tell the difference of an alnico and ceramic magnet (the ceramic one cracks, alnico doesn’t) but telling different alnicos from each other is impossible. That’s why I write it to them with a marker when I buy new ones!

And ancient ”steel cobalt” magnets – I have even never seen one.

wire and turns

[Herbie]

wire and turns

Some say they can tell what the wire is but to my eyes and fingers they all look the same. Turns relate to DCR which can be measured with a multimeter. BUT: many CC pickups use thicker wire, so the DCR is small but output normal.

I found this information from Mylespaul forum:

”(…) he first version, made from 1935 to 1938 had AWG 38 wire wound to have about 2,5k/3,5k DCR.In 1938 Gibson started experimenting with wire gauge and switched for a while to AWG 41 and the latest examples were about 9000 turns of AWG 42.
The one with a huge magnet under the bobbin as in the picture posted in the previous page was one of the later models for Lap Steel.
The 70s Gibson replicas used AWG 42, I think, as the few I had the chance to check had a DCR of about 7,5k.
As for the Charlie Christian sound, I guess he had one with AWG 38 in his first ES 150, but when he acquired the ES 250 probably it had the AWG 41 or 42 version, as it was a 1939 model. (…)”

What makes a Charlie Christian pickup a Charlie Christian pickup? | Page 3 | My Les Paul Forum

[Cunamara]

The notch is not needed, from what I can tell, there's a good balance with the straight blade, although I had to lower the bass side a bit. If I was a betting man, I'd bet the stock pickup was definitely made in China, they tend to use ceramic in most of their pickups, like the pickup on the PM2AA, and many other models.

With my floating CC pick up by Pete, I couldn't lower the bass side of the pickup enough to balance because there simply wasn't room. I found that Monel strings balanced quite well, however. Those are probably what Charlie Christian used, so I guess that makes some sense.

[arnie65]

I don’t know anything about CC pickups. Where do the magnets go that can be interchanged for the Biltoft?

The underside of the pickups have a cover with 4 screws (depending on the type of pickup) that you take off, there are 2 magnets that will come out and you can change to the magnets of you choice. Pete will provide you with a set of alternate magnets of your choice if you ask when ordering. As far as I know, Pete is the only pickup maker that does this, and designs his pickups so players can do this. He even provides a set of instructions on how to do this.


Cheers,
Arnie..

[arnie65]

Upon examining the stock pickup of the PM3C closely, I discovered that the ceramic magnets are accessible and able to be easily replaced by just taking them out and putting the new magnets in. The one in the back of the pickup lays sideways and can be removed from either side; the one on front of the pickup is just a bit more challenging to remove, it lays flat one the metal base, but it easily comes out using a pocket small screwdriver. This is good news for those who want to change the magnets for just a few bucks. You can get the magnets of your choice from Pete Biltoft, Arnold Magnetic.com, or a number of other places. Beware on getting magnets from Ebay, Temu, or Amazon, since they might not be the best quality. FYI...


Cheers,
Arnie..

[Cunamara]

Thanks, Arnie! Thanks to you, we know exponentially more about this instrument than we did a week ago.

Are the magnets just held in by magnetism rather than some clamping force holding them in place? And it appears to be an interesting arrangement where one magnet is flat and the other is vertical compared to the base plate.

[arnie65]

Thanks, Arnie! Thanks to you, we know exponentially more about this instrument than we did a week ago.

Are the magnets just held in by magnetism rather than some clamping force holding them in place? And it appears to be an interesting arrangement where one magnet is flat and the other is vertical compared to the base plate.

Just held by magnetist, interesting arrangement indeed.

Arnie

[Brian859]

That is a really interesting breakthrough of information. So one could even mix and match the two magnets with an A2 in one location, A5 in the other. Or A3 and A2. I wonder what affect that would have. Maybe that would allow for fine tuning the tone. One could even envision people listing their favorite combinations. Like A3 north, A5 south. Or A2S, A8N. But who knows. Arnie, if you read this, maybe measure and post the magnet dimensions?

[arnie65]

Arnie, if you read this, maybe measure and post the magnet dimensions?

The magnets are pretty much standard size of 2 3/8" L X 1/4" W


Cheers,
Arnie.

[Brian859]

The magnets are pretty much standard size of 2 3/8" L X 2/8" W


Cheers,
Arnie.

Thanks Arnie. You single handedly supplied about all the information anyone would need. It could make a real difference for someone trying to improve the tone of that. Time will tell.

[Cunamara]

How's the new pickup sounding as you get acclimated to it?

[garybaldy]

Some say they can tell what the wire is but to my eyes and fingers they all look the same. Turns relate to DCR which can be measured with a multimeter. BUT: many CC pickups use thicker wire, so the DCR is small but output normal.

I found this information from Mylespaul forum:

”(…) he first version, made from 1935 to 1938 had AWG 38 wire wound to have about 2,5k/3,5k DCR.In 1938 Gibson started experimenting with wire gauge and switched for a while to AWG 41 and the latest examples were about 9000 turns of AWG 42.
The one with a huge magnet under the bobbin as in the picture posted in the previous page was one of the later models for Lap Steel.
The 70s Gibson replicas used AWG 42, I think, as the few I had the chance to check had a DCR of about 7,5k.
As for the Charlie Christian sound, I guess he had one with AWG 38 in his first ES 150, but when he acquired the ES 250 probably it had the AWG 41 or 42 version, as it was a 1939 model. (…)”

What makes a Charlie Christian pickup a Charlie Christian pickup? | Page 3 | My Les Paul Forum

I get all that thanks and I suppose the year of an instrument would be a good clue as to which version was on it. But other than that, would one have to pull open a pickup to tell for sure?

[arnie65]

How's the new pickup sounding as you get acclimated to it?

This pickups are a bit tricky to set on archtops, I had to lower it a bit more, and it's now perfect (for me)
It has that punchy, warm, fat tone I first heard on Fred Archtop's 53' L5C. I'm quite happy with it.


Cheers,
Arnie.

[Herbie]

That is a really interesting breakthrough of information. So one could even mix and match the two magnets with an A2 in one location, A5 in the other. Or A3 and A2. I wonder what affect that would have. Maybe that would allow for fine tuning the tone. One could even envision people listing their favorite combinations. Like A3 north, A5 south. Or A2S, A8N. But who knows. Arnie, if you read this, maybe measure and post the magnet dimensions?

Mixing and matching two magnet pickups is interesting and surprising.

Some time ago I bought a Gibson Les Paul 1954 Reissue and thought that the P90 pickups sounded surprisingly lame. Not at all sharp and full like normal Gibson P90, but unbright and ... lame!

I studied a bit and learned that guitar's pickups had A3 magnets, which are weaker and some like their nuances, but I wanted similar a bit agressive P90 as LP Special has.

So I bought some A5 magnets and swapped them to pickups. Result was almost satisfying, but then the boominess of the neck pu started to annoy me. I should have lower the pickup some mm's, but then I should've carve the pu cavity as much deeper. No no.

So I decided to try A4 magnets that I had spare. But although I like them wonderful in some humbuckers, in this guitar's P90s they were too thin and almost harsh.

Well then I swapped the other A4 magnet away and substituted it with an A5 magnet, and voila! Full, bright, agressive but not boomy at all! So I changed the A4/A5-combination to my LP Special too! Perfect P90s!

When You are mixing magnets with each other be sure that You put them on same way as the previous magnets! Otherwise You'll get thin 'opposite phase' sound with one pickup!

You can't see the magnets but here is a pic of the guitar anyway so Your eyes can enjoy!

[pingu]

This pickups are a bit tricky to set on archtops, I had to lower it a bit more, and it's now perfect (for me)
It has that punchy, warm, fat tone I first heard on Fred Archtop's 53' L5C. I'm quite happy with it.


Cheers,
Arnie.

wow that’s a very high standard !

Sounds like the Biltoft CC is the
way to go

[pingu]

interestingly the actual Pat guitars
have a CC pickup that appears to
have a B notch

[arnie65]

interestingly the actual Pat guitars
have a CC pickup that appears to
have a B notch

Yes, and if you look carefully at the photo, Pat is not using the same guitar that is being sold. If you look at the 3 pickup screws, they are bigger screws, and are silver/chrome, not gold color. So he is probably using the CC pickup made by "CC Pickups" in the UK, like his Slaman guitar. In addition, look closely at the top of the guitar and you'll notice is not spruce, it's maple, also the fret markers are different, the headstock is different etc. That is a custom guitar made for him by Ibanez.


Arnie...

[Cunamara]

While I am sure Pat gets custom prototypes from Ibanez rather than production models, your original pickup had a B string notch based on your photos. Pat's inlays are the MIJ pearl/abalone used in the top of the line models. Is his natural one maple topped, though? The grain pattern looks like a fine tight-grained spruce to me. And he appears to have a steel washer Scotch taped to the upper rim. But no toothbrush.

FWIW, the pickup in his Slaman had individual adjustable polepieces at his request.

[arnie65]

While I am sure Pat gets custom prototypes from Ibanez rather than production models, your original pickup had a B string notch based on your photos. Pat's inlays are the MIJ pearl/abalone used in the top of the line models. Is his natural one maple topped, though? The grain pattern looks like a fine tight-grained spruce to me. And he appears to have a steel washer Scotch taped to the upper rim. But no toothbrush.

FWIW, the pickup in his Slaman had individual adjustable polepieces at his request.

There's no way to be sure, you might be right. The pickup is not exactly the one on his Slaman, but definitely looks like a pickup from "CC Pickups" in the UK, which Slaman uses, almost exclusively on the CC models. I don't have a notch on the blade of my Biltoft pickup, but I don't hear any difference in volume or tone on the "B" string.



Arnie..

[Cunamara]

My Biltoft CC also does not have a notch and the B string is not particularly prominent compared to the others when using nickel roundwound. I did find it, at least on my guitar, to have a lot of bass response and a strong tendency to feedback, the A string in particular. Switching to Monel strings brought that problem down quite a bit, although it did make the B string a bit more prominent compared to the G string. I had to fart around with strings because I couldn't lower the bass side of the pick up (it's a floater) and I use a tweed Deluxe amp which is pretty bassy, as well. (I've modded the amp so that I can roll off some of the bass frequencies).

FWIW, my CC has A2 magnets as does my Biltoft floating humbucker. They seem to impart a rather softer tone than the A5 magnets do.

I just noticed that the blonde guitar Pat is holding is at least cosmetically different. The black one appears to have the production inlays.

[Bluedawg]

It's possible that Pat has access to Japanese made versions of this new model already.

Or his guitars may even come out of Ibanez's custom shop in LA.

My guess is there will be a more expensive Japanese version released if the Indonesian version does well.

[Cunamara]

Yes, the possibility of a "PM300C" crossed my mind as well.

It is interesting that Ibanez even makes these guitars (i.e., archtops), because the market has to be pretty small and it can't be a big profit center for the corporation. But they seem to be quite committed to the archtop guitar market and kudos to them for that. They've been producing the George Benson guitars for over 40 years! And I don't remember when they started the first Pat Metheny model, but it was at least 20 or 25 years ago. On top of that, they have multiple non-signature, very reasonably priced archtop guitars, which are pretty darn good for the money.

Once again, Arnie, thank you for sharing all this information about your new guitar with us. I think we may know more about this one than we do about any other Pat Metheny model.