Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[frabarmus]

I don't avoid notes, I welcome them.
The ear is the final, supreme judge.

[Christian Miller]

The crazy thing is I actually agree a bit with Dunlop. Varying the melody is one of the best ways to improvise. The melody also has a way of telling you about - the harmony.

Harmony, bass and middle lines, it’s all good. Look for patterns, learn songs.

Chord symbols are an imperfect way of recording this info

Otoh chord scales go brrrrrr


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[pamosmusic]

Or a bendy sword


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Blunderbuss

Flintlock

Bring me my frilliest shirt!

[pamosmusic]

when you improvise over a given harmony you have to create melodies over it. the quality of the music is in the melodic approach that obviously involve harmony concepts.
but is hard to teach or train, how to make good melodies. thats why most of the people struggle when making music. I never would say to a guy, hey you want to make something good, study the chords of this song,,,i think is sterile, thats why im not a fake guru, I know that harldy wont work.
I always focus in the melodies when I make music. That works for me

Im glad it works for you. It’s possible — and I’m just spitballing here —that thinking about harmony and melody both can work for other people.

[JimmyDunlop]

The crazy thing is I actually agree a bit with Dunlop. Varying the melody is one of the best ways to improvise. The melody also has a way of telling you about - the harmony.

Harmony, bass and middle lines, it’s all good. Look for patterns, learn songs.

Chord symbols are an imperfect way of recording this info

Otoh chord scales go brrrrrr


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melodies is the most important thing, is what catch the ear and it ofc implies the harmony itself so some how it implies harmonic quality. for example your piece anansi blues it has very repetitive melodies for a composition. I dont know why you did it like that

[Christian Miller]

Blunderbuss

Flintlock

Bring me my frilliest shirt!

Arquebus

I don’t know what that is but I always liked the name


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[Christian Miller]

melodies is the most important thing, is what catch the ear and it ofc implies the harmony itself so some how it implies harmonic quality. for example your piece anansi blues it has very repetitive melodies for a composition. I dont know why you did it like that

Because that’s the way I heard it.

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[Tal_175]

Because that’s the way I heard it.

If you don’t like it, I don’t care. (I mean you’re entitled to your opinion of course, but also I don’t care about it.)

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Clearly you aren't hearing right. When someone says they are the real music guru on the internet, you should listen. People don't throw these words around lightly when they don't have the goods to back it up.

[JimmyDunlop]

Because that’s the way I heard it.

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yes but its very rudimentary. it tires the ear. i am not saying that this is what can you compose, i am sure u can do other things. but is very monotonous

[Christian Miller]

Clearly you aren't hearing right. When someone says they are the real music guru on the internet, you should listen. People don't throw these words around lightly when they don't have the goods to back it up.

Yeah I mean it’s an expression of personal taste. From my perspective I feel it successfully does what I wanted the tune to do, and it came quickly and naturally which is usually a good thing. I wanted something very powerful, repetitive and declaratory that we could finish a set with.

I’ve heard Jimmy’s music and that’s really not his approach to music at all. I like Jimmy’s stuff quite a bit actually.


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[JimmyDunlop]

Yeah I mean it’s an expression of personal taste. From my perspective I feel it successfully does what I wanted the tune to do, and it came quickly and naturally which is usually a good thing. I wanted something very powerful, repetitive and declaratory that we could finish a set with.

I’ve heard Jimmy’s music and that’s really not his approach to music at all. I like Jimmy’s stuff quite a bit actually.


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what do you mean is not my approach? lol, i always focus in melodies. I dont know what music you heard but I made new things, still I focused on melodies and then made the accompaniament/orchestation. I will post since many people is starting to thing with all the right of the world that I am just a bla bla bla guy. I understand this since I havent posted nothing.

i will post some compositions i made with the melodic approach i was talking about
i think the first one would be my more complete work so far in terms of extension.

Stream Op4f Piano by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Op2c by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Comp3i Op1 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Grandmarch by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

all of them I repeated the same approach, created the melodies first and then finding the accompaniament. Just all by ear since I dont know music theory. Ofc i would like to study with a good professor, specially orchestation techniques, but i cant afford it right now, but in a future hopefully, it will make me improve a lot. The best would be the last one I think

[rodolfoguitarra]

Of course, then it's the ii of A7. This has nothing to do with Em as the iii of C major!

Attachment 109913

Yes, sorry

[Christian Miller]

yes but its very rudimentary. it tires the ear. i am not saying that this is what can you compose, i am sure u can do other things. but is very monotonous

Ok, so don’t listen to it.

Why not spend your time listening to or composing music you actually like instead?


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[Christian Miller]

what do you mean is not my approach? lol, i always focus in melodies. I dont know what music you heard but I made new things, still I focused on melodies and then made the accompaniament/orchestation. I will post since many people is starting to thing with all the right of the world that I am just a bla bla bla guy. I understand this since I havent posted nothing.

i will post some compositions i made with the melodic approach i was talking about
i think the first one would be my more complete work so far in terms of extension.

Stream Op4f Piano by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Op2c by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Comp3i Op1 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Grandmarch by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

all of them I repeated the same approach, created the melodies first and then finding the accompaniament. Just all by ear since I dont know music theory. Ofc i would like to study with a good professor, specially orchestation techniques, but i cant afford it right now, but in a future hopefully, it will make me improve a lot

Your style and what you want from composition is different to mine. I think that’s manifest in your music.

Tbh I’m not sure if I could even term myself a composer. That seems rather grand for what I do … but I like what I like.

But don’t confuse aesthetic preference for something objective. (Without going into the philosophy people will avoid you at parties haha )

I’m glad you are considering my advice to you a year or so back. Make sure you find someone who is either simpatico or open minded about your style though…


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[Tal_175]

Make sure you find someone who is either simpatico or open minded.

Which one are you? (Since you said you liked his music quite a bit).

[Christian Miller]

Which one are you? (Since you said you liked his music quite a bit).

Open minded I think. I like lots of different kinds of music. I also feel I am getting better at at least try to appreciate music on its own terms rather than dragging my own BS into everything.

It’s an important attitude to maintain as an educator lol. For example - assessing compositions at undergrad level now is a whole exercise in understanding what was intended and then assessing the work on that axis. Not easy. You might have a prog rock epic, a serial work, a jazz chart, an electro acoustic piece of sound design and an EDM track side by side.

Gets harder with things closer to what I do myself tho.

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[JimmyDunlop]

(Without going into the philosophy people will avoid you at parties haha )

What do you mean lol?

pd: I just posted so it wont look as I am the typical random guy with zero skills and knowledge who talks too much and question everything. I think i am a beginner but at least i can do some melodies and orchestate them somehow.

[Tal_175]

what do you mean is not my approach? lol, i always focus in melodies. I dont know what music you heard but I made new things, still I focused on melodies and then made the accompaniament/orchestation. I will post since many people is starting to thing with all the right of the world that I am just a bla bla bla guy. I understand this since I havent posted nothing.

i will post some compositions i made with the melodic approach i was talking about
i think the first one would be my more complete work so far in terms of extension.

Stream Op4f Piano by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Op2c by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Comp3i Op1 by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Stream Grandmarch by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

all of them I repeated the same approach, created the melodies first and then finding the accompaniament. Just all by ear since I dont know music theory. Ofc i would like to study with a good professor, specially orchestation techniques, but i cant afford it right now, but in a future hopefully, it will make me improve a lot. The best would be the last one I think

If you don't put yourself under the constraints of an improvising jazz guitarists on a bandstand (or solo playing), I don't think you can quite understand the importance of harmonic preparation.

If I had a whole day to try out different harmonies and orchestration devices for a melody using a software, then what I would spend my time practicing daily would've been quite different. I still don't think I'd have been as bravado about being ignorant about harmony but it would probably be a not us much of a focus.

A lot of (good) improvisation relies on preparation. You hope to be able to transcend your preparation at least some of the time but that requires (at least for me) a practice routine that involves identifying different harmonic situations and internalizing them over tunes to the extend that I can get them in my ears and fingers.

[pamosmusic]

What do you mean lol?

pd: I just posted so it wont look as I am the typical random guy with zero skills and knowledge who talks too much and question everything. I think i am a beginner but at least i can do some melodies and orchestate them somehow.

Not to be weird but you are aware that some other people on this thread have also posted numerous examples of their playing?

[JimmyDunlop]

If you don't put yourself under the constraints of an improvising jazz guitarists on a bandstand (or solo playing), I don't think you can quite understand the importance of harmonic preparation.

If I had a whole day to try out different harmonies and orchestration devices for a melody using a software, then what I would spend my time practicing daily would've been quite different. I still don't think I'd have been as bravado about being ignorant about harmony but it would probably be a not us much of a focus.

A lot of (good) improvisation relies on preparation. You hope to be able to transcend your preparation at least some of the time but that requires (at least for me) a practice routine that involves identifying different harmonic situations and internalizing them over tunes to the extend that I can get them in my ears and fingers.

I dont know whats your point. Its not that I dont know harmony, else i couldnt harmonize the music I made. I can harmonize things very easy and normally fast, not even using a guitar, just with the score. My knowledge of harmony is different to other approaches, I just use my ears, I dont know formulas or technical stuff, but finally you reach the same point and target, which is to harmonize the melodies I make. I just dont know "formal" harmony but at the end I get the same results just by ear.
Btw is not that I dont want to study harmony, its just I cant do it right now, so I just use my ears, what else can I do? somehow it works.

[pamosmusic]

I dont know whats your point. Its not that I dont know harmony, else i couldnt harmonize the music I made. I can harmonize things very easy and normally fast, not even using a guitar, just with the score. My knowledge of harmony is different to other approaches, I just use my ears, I dont know formulas or technical stuff, but finally you reach the same point and target, which is to harmonize the melodies I make. I just dont know "formal" harmony but at the end I get the same results just by ear.
Btw is not that I dont want to study harmony, its just I cant do it right now, so I just use my ears, what else can I do? somehow it works.

You know … “knowing harmony” and “using your ears” are not mutually exclusive.

Actually knowing harmony can make your ears more effective. Theory is the means by which I train my ears.

[Christian Miller]

I dont know whats your point. Its not that I dont know harmony, else i couldnt harmonize the music I made. I can harmonize things very easy and normally fast, not even using a guitar, just with the score. My knowledge of harmony is different to other approaches, I just use my ears, I dont know formulas or technical stuff, but finally you reach the same point and target, which is to harmonize the melodies I make. I just dont know "formal" harmony but at the end I get the same results just by ear.
Btw is not that I dont want to study harmony, its just I cant do it right now, so I just use my ears, what else can I do? somehow it works.

What Tal means (I think) is that jazz players most often improvise on changes and we spend large amounts of our time on getting comfortable with those changes, be they modal vamps, blues, standards or some original tune.

The organisation of jazz reflects that. Jazz musicians tend to compose shortish lead sheets with changes for improvisation. A good mainline jazz tune combines a strong theme with changes that can serve as fertile ground for improvisation. It’s not the only way to go about it, but it’s the most common template.

(This is separate from writing for jazz orchestra etc.)

That’s a bit different from writing purely composed musicians


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[JimmyDunlop]

You know … “knowing harmony” and “using your ears” are not mutually exclusive.

Actually knowing harmony can make your ears more effective. Theory is the means by which I train my ears.

Man how could I did this If I dont know harmony? By magic? I found the chords?

or this

Stream Op6d by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Its just that I use my ears and it implies harmony knowledge, different to the traditional approach maybe but it includes harmonic knowledge for sure.

[JimmyDunlop]

What Tal means (I think) is that jazz players most often improvise on changes and we spend large amounts of our time on getting comfortable with those changes, be they modal vamps, blues, standards or some original tune.

The organisation of jazz reflects that. Jazz musicians tend to compose shortish lead sheets with changes for improvisation. A good mainline jazz tune combines a strong theme with changes that can serve as fertile ground for improvisation. It’s not the only way to go about it, but it’s the most common template.

(This is separate from writing for jazz orchestra etc.)

That’s a bit different from writing purely composed musicians


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but why you people think I cant improvise over a jazz standard? I mean its not the thing I like to do the most, but is possible.

[mr. beaumont]

but why you people think I cant improvise over a jazz standard? I mean its not the thing I like to do the most, but is possible.

Probably just based on the music you have posted. I wouldn't have thought you enjoy jazz at all.

Not that that's a bad thing. Just most folks here are here for the jazz