Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[GuyBoden]

Phrygian natural 6th and natural 7th.

Including an exert of Ravel's Piano Concerto in G, using this mode as a final cadence.

Maybe we should all read this:

[frabarmus]

Phrygian Natural 3.

Ron Miller's Sunchild.

Music Starts at 1.05min

Really enjoyed that!

I love modes, modal harmony (and Greek geographical names)

[GuyBoden]

Really enjoyed that!

I love modes, modal harmony (and Greek geographical names)

You should have a read of Ron Miller's Modal Jazz Composition & Harmony book, if you haven't already.

[frabarmus]

You should have a read of Ron Miller's Modal Jazz Composition & Harmony book, if you haven't already.

No I haven't, thanks for pointing it out to me, that'll be my next purchase.

[GuyBoden]

No I haven't, thanks for pointing it out to me, that'll be my next purchase.

You can read it here:
Miller Ron Modal Jazz, Composition And Harmony : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

[frabarmus]

You can read it here:
Miller Ron Modal Jazz, Composition And Harmony : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Thanks a lot!

[rodolfoguitarra]

Phrygian Natural 3.

Ron Miller's Sunchild.

Music Starts at 1.05min

I´m loving his book! It seems the most exhaustive one in modes.

[rodolfoguitarra]

As the creator of this topic I don't want to be seen as a modes hater. In reality, this topic comes precisely from the fact that lately I have been studying a lot about modal approaches and the way to contradict functional harmony.

[Mick-7]

My favorite mode is apple-pie-a-la

[frabarmus]

My favorite mode is apple-pie-a-la

My favourite modes are:
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday
Sunday

And my favourite 12 tones are:
January
February
March
April
May
June
July
August
September
October
November
December

[ragman1]

I´m loving his book!

No, you don't, rodolfo. You no more understand it than I do nuclear physics. I'm not even convinced that Ron Miller understands it himself.

I have been studying a lot about modal approaches and the way to contradict functional harmony.

Modal playing does not 'contradict' functional harmony, it's just different, that's all. Modal playing can quite happily be incorporated into functional tunes without effort.

This is how to play modes. Details on request.

[djg]

This is how to play modes. Details on request.

the wrong-tone scale is not a mode.

[ragman1]

the wrong-tone scale is not a mode.

What do you mean by 'the wrong-tone scale'?

[GuyBoden]

This is Jazz Modal Harmony.

To be specific, it's all melodic minor Jazz modal harmony.

[Christian Miller]

What do you mean by 'the wrong-tone scale'?

I think have intuitively mastered it without knowing the theory


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[ragman1]

I don't know what he means by a wrong-tone scale. Presumably lines that contain outside notes.

But all modes are scales and vice versa. Modes are simply extractions from parent scales, it's just a matter of terms.

I notice no one has answered my posts directly, which I find disconcerting. I'd have answered them directly but there you are. Christian's answer seems to me to be a non-sequitur. I don't know what it means anyway.

Except for one point where I superimposed an Am triad over Em7b5, which was rather delicious, everything I played was a mode. Select examples:

BbM7 - Bb Ionian, Bb Lydian.

G7#5 - Super Locrian (alt).

Dm7b5 - D Locrian nat 6.

G7b9 - G dominant b9, b13

However, I suspect most of you would say that modal playing involved longer bars of the same chord and the use of particular modes over them. I could have done that but it wouldn't have achieved much. Anyone here could do that.

As for Guy's video, very nice, but it's the same idea with a different tune, that's all. And he certainly wasn't playing melodic minors all the time.

[pamosmusic]

I don't know what he means by a wrong-tone scale. Presumably lines that contain outside notes.

But all modes are scales and vice versa. Modes are simply extractions from parent scales, it's just a matter of terms.

I notice no one has answered my posts directly, which I find disconcerting. I'd have answered them directly but there you are. Christian's answer seems to me to be a non-sequitur. I don't know what it means anyway.

Except for one point where I superimposed an Am triad over Em7b5, which was rather delicious, everything I played was a mode. Select examples:

BbM7 - Bb Ionian, Bb Lydian.

G7#5 - Super Locrian (alt).

Dm7b5 - D Locrian nat 6.

G7b9 - G dominant b9, b13

However, I suspect most of you would say that modal playing involved longer bars of the same chord and the use of a particular mode over them. I could have done that but it wouldn't have achieved much. Anyone here could do that.

As for Guy's video, very nice, but it's the same idea with a different tune, that's all.

Alrighty. So a direct answer would be that djg is making a little dig at you because the playing on Stella there is a little haphazard and not really sounding as proficient as the surrounding posts suggest you believe it is.

Which is fine of course. Nobody particularly cares when folks are still working things out. It’s just one of those things where we can sometimes build ourselves up like we’ve already got them figured out. Which I’m as guilty of as anyone else.

And then Modal playing is not the same as playing that uses modes. Playing where you think of modes as material for traditional changes would be Chord Scale Theory. Modal playing is when the entire composition, harmony, improvisation, centers around bringing out various mode sounds.

[rodolfoguitarra]

What do you mean by 'the wrong-tone scale'?

I have also heard ´´wrong notes´´ there.

For me, wrong notes are notes that have not sounded as we expected them to sound (lack of control; tensions not properly resolved, etc). At least when listening to you, this was the feeling you gave me.

For instence at min 2:09 you played the Gb (b9) over the F7 chord. That note at that time (and taking into account the previous idea you played) implied that you would resolve to the root of Fm7.

That chord is kind of V7/V7 of EbMaj7 (which is the IV of the key). Tonicization ocurred and the b9 was a poor choice to my ears.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd say ragman's recording is a good example of why you shouldn't force CST on functional tunes...and I'm not trying to knock your playing rag, it's just you can hear (and I'm sure you can hear it too) many of these notes, while "correct," are lousy resolution points...

I'm currently learning Tony Williams' "Pee Wee." Not that's gonna be a different story. I'm gonna need to dust off the 'ol CST cap.

[pamosmusic]

I have also heard ´´wrong notes´´ there.

For me, wrong notes are notes that have not sounded as we expected them to sound (lack of control; tensions not properly resolved, etc). At least when listening to you, this was the feeling you gave me.

For instence at min 2:09 you played the Gb (b9) over the F7 chord. That note at that time (and taking into account the previous idea you played) implied that you would resolve to the root of Fm7.

That chord is kind of V7/V7 of EbMaj7 (which is the IV of the key). Tonicization ocurred and the b9 was a poor choice to my ears.

Thats a good point.

This is a good example of why—even in chord scale theory—the choice of chord scale is subordinate to the function in context.

There are probably a dozen common chord scale choices for a dominant chord, but when the context is taken into account, you’re usually narrowed down to one or two that are orders of magnitude more common, and one or two that pop up but are less common, with the rest being vanishingly uncommon.

That V/V, for example, is far and away most often a 9/13 sound rather than b9/b13. Like it’s almost never the latter. When the 11 is present it’s probably normally a #11 but also pretty often regular 11. That narrows things pretty quickly to two common choices.

And I’m a big chord scale guy, but you absolutely cannot separate the choices from the functional harmony of functional tunes.

[ragman1]

Alrighty. So a direct answer would be that djg is making a little dig at you

He's not good enough to take a dig at me :-)

the playing on Stella there is a little haphazard

No, it's not, it's exactly what I want it to be. I like it as it is.

Nobody particularly cares when folks are still working things out.

I'm not still working things out. It's worked out and played accordingly.

Modal playing is not the same as playing that uses modes. Playing where you think of modes as material for traditional changes would be Chord Scale Theory. Modal playing is when the entire composition, harmony, improvisation, centers around bringing out various mode sounds.

You think I don't know that? It's covered in my previous post. If I thought it was worth it here I'd do exactly that. In fact I probably will. For myself, not for you lot to pick over when you can't do it yourselves!

This isn't bluff and bravado. I mean it, even if you don't think so!

[ragman1]

I have also heard ´´wrong notes´´ there.

For me, wrong notes are notes that have not sounded as we expected them to sound (lack of control; tensions not properly resolved, etc). At least when listening to you, this was the feeling you gave me.

For instence at min 2:09 you played the Gb (b9) over the F7 chord. That note at that time (and taking into account the previous idea you played) implied that you would resolve to the root of Fm7.

That chord is kind of V7/V7 of EbMaj7 (which is the IV of the key). Tonicization ocurred and the b9 was a poor choice to my ears.

So show me how it's done, maestro. The stage is yours.

[ragman1]

I'd say ragman's recording is a good example of why you shouldn't force CST on functional tunes...and I'm not trying to knock your playing rag, it's just you can hear (and I'm sure you can hear it too) many of these notes, while "correct," are lousy resolution points...

That's okay, I don't mind at all. I'm not ranting in self-defence!

I'm sure it's not technically perfect but, like I say, I'm happy with how it sounds. Personally speaking, that is. And the whole idea was to play modes over functional harmony, not present a modal piece.

[pamosmusic]

He's not good enough to take a dig at me :-)



No, it's not, it's exactly what I want it to be. I like it as it is.



I'm not still working things out. It's worked out and played accordingly.



You think I don't know that? It's covered in my previous post. If I thought it was worth it here I'd do exactly that. In fact I probably will. For myself, not for you lot to pick over when you can't do it yourselves!

This isn't bluff and bravado. I mean it, even if you don't think so!

I’ll go ahead and take this to me that you don’t really want direct responses to things. Which is also fine.

[ragman1]

I’ll go ahead and take this to me that you don’t really want direct responses to things. Which is also fine.

From #267 earlier in the thread.

'I notice no one has answered my posts directly, which I find disconcerting. I'd have answered them directly but there you are.'

Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names