Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[Bobby Timmons]

Soloing on Donna Lee is the easy part

Yep, which is why you should be able to work a bit of it in tandem. :P

Baby steps sir, baby steps for many of us. We're always lectured to about "learn the melody" and that's what we're doing at this juncture.
Feel free to post your own guitar fingerings for the measures. We'd love to see and hear another JGO member play.

I posted my rendition on page 5. Sorry, I can't participate with working it out on guitar because I'm a pianist. I guess I'm just cheerleading now.

Another quality thumbnail, by the way.

Yep haha.

[Christian Miller]

The melody of Donna Lee IS soloing material


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[Bobby Timmons]

Yes it is. Ideally combined with some fluency of the changes I would say.

[Christian Miller]

People practice scales and arpeggios don't they? Perhaps I'm naive.

[CliffR]

People practice scales and arpeggios don't they? Perhaps I'm naive.

Sure. Absolutely. Yes.

[Bobby Timmons]

People practice scales and arpeggios don't they? Perhaps I'm naive.

That's what I suggested people do. What is the source of disagreement? lol

[GuyBoden]

I had a repeated listen of Donna Lee this morning.

I hear a lot of players using a triplet for the opening notes, but my ears are telling it's not a triplet.

Answers please?

Or, does it not really matter.

[pamosmusic]

I had a repeated listen of Donna Lee this morning.

I hear a lot of players using a triplet for the opening notes, but my ears are telling it's not a triplet.

Answers please?

Or, does it not really matter.

Definitely a triplet.

Your guy might be doing an eighth note followed by paired sixteenth notes?

[pamosmusic]

Yes it is. Ideally combined with some fluency of the changes I would say.

I think what Christian is saying is that you can work on scales any ole time. Donna Lee is already those scales and arpeggios transformed into vocabulary. Working on scales and intervals is sort of unskipping the middle man.

[GuyBoden]

Definitely a triplet.

Your guy might be doing an eighth note followed by paired sixteenth notes?

Thanks, I'll move onto the next 4 bars.

[Tal_175]

I found this knocking around in my drive

Attachment 111194

For the analysis of bar two (F7b9 going to Bb7), backdoor with raised one is too clever I think. It's just the good old F7b9 arpeggio going up from the third, down to the third of the target with #9 b9 1 7 -> 3 (with a pivot). Maybe I'm too simple.

It's probably the most (over)used bebop lick of all times. It's also one of the common guide tone patterns discussed in educational materials (Randy Vincent, Bert Ligon etc).

The exact same thing happens in bar 16 ( Eb7-> Ab). It's just the same arpeggio up from the third, down to the third of the target with the cliche b9 #9 trill. This time without pivoting. I think there is a slight mistake in the Eb7 arpeggio in the sheet. The arpeggio form the third repeats Bb instead of going up to Eb.

I find analyzing a line over Eb7 oriented to Eb7 easier than seeing it as a Gb7. Maybe this is another one of our parallel-derivative clashes, lol. Just putting it out there as an alternative analysis.

[pamosmusic]

Alright … on the topic of Donna Lee being vocabulary in its own right, here’s a bit on how I end up raiding stuff like this for ideas. Using m13-14 in this case:

For what it’s worth, this might be idiosyncratic, but I think comes from my tendency to think about chord tones (upper structures too) rather than about scales in a linear way. So it would probably (?) be a different approach from what Christian might come to from the more linear analysis.

(Yes, I did get 80% of my hair cut off between this video and the last)

[Christian Miller]

That's what I suggested people do. What is the source of disagreement? lol

I'm sure you can find one if you try hard enough

[Christian Miller]

For the analysis of bar two (F7b9 going to Bb7), backdoor with raised one is too clever I think. It's just the good old F7b9 arpeggio going up from the third, down to the third of the target with #9 b9 1 7 -> 3 (with a pivot). Maybe I'm too simple.

Yeah I mean that's not wrong. That's exactly how I describe in two of the videos I posted that I'm sure you watched lol.

The scale is the Ab7 to the third of F7.

Barry Harris was allergic to compound interval notation haha. I'm trying to think how exactly he would have described it...

It's probably the most (over)used bebop lick of all times. It's also one of the common guide tone patterns discussed in educational materials (Randy Vincent, Bert Ligon etc).

It's a classic. I certainly overuse it lol. You have to learn those cliches if you want to learn the idiom though. You aren't too good for 'em haha.

The exact same thing happens in bar 16 ( Eb7-> Ab). It's just the same arpeggio up from the third, down to the third of the target with the cliche b9 #9 trill. This time without pivoting. I think there is a slight mistake in the Eb7 arpeggio in the sheet. The arpeggio form the third repeats Bb instead of going up to Eb.

Yeah, a typo I think, I don't play this.

I find analyzing a line over Eb7 oriented to Eb7 easier than seeing it as a Gb7. Maybe this is another one of our parallel-derivative clashes, lol. Just putting it out there as an alternative analysis.

Well, practice it more then and stop moaning :-)

It took me a while. But the benefits have been worth it. There's a whole slew of things a bit like this lick that I just chunk into the Gb7 scale. It's not easier in the short term but if you have spent any time with the dominant scale there's instantly a million things you can play on a minor II V I with all the fancy added note rules and whatnot for no extra investment in practice time. Or any II V I for that matter. But for while it is a bit like converting Centigrade into Fahrenheit.

Not all licks of this type contain the third of the dominant either. Barry was quite into not using the third of the dominant in fact.

In the short term you can plug this lick into any dominant, and should. Immediately. Right Now.

[Tal_175]

It's a classic. I certainly overuse it lol. You have to learn those cliches if you want to learn the idiom though. You aren't too good for 'em haha.

I'm trying to cut down, lol.

Well, practice it more then and stop moaning :-)

It took me a while. But the benefits have been worth it. There's a whole slew of things a bit like this lick that I just chunk into the Gb7 scale. It's not easier in the short term but if you have spent any time with the dominant scale there's instantly a million things you can play on a minor II V I with all the fancy added note rules and whatnot for no extra investment in practice time. Or any II V I for that matter. But for while it is a bit like converting Centigrade into Fahrenheit.

Oh I spent time playing family of dominants into each other. I just disagree that it provides a good insight into the way, for example, the bars 15- 16 back to top of Donna Lee works. In those bars you get as characteristic and unambiguous 7-3 voice leading right on the bar lines as you'll find in any jazz recording and Bach composition. The analysis buries the 7-3 movements inside the scales over the bar lines.

Not all licks of this type contain the third of the dominant either. Barry was quite into not using the third of the dominant in fact.

In the short term you can plug this lick into any dominant, and should. Immediately. Right Now. What are you waiting for? Stella, all 12 keys. GO!

Thanks, but one of the things I worked very hard on was to internalize the fretboard so I don't have to think of licks in a derivative way. I can orient any lick to the chord of the moment. You don't lose anything (except practice hours). You can play the same ideas but your organization match what you hear and the harmony. It becomes a practice habit. I know you are working on the intervallic view. Maybe you'll come to like this view at some point (however brief that moment might be).

[Mick-7]

Is there a definitive recording of this tune by the man himself, Charlie "Yardbird" Parker?

I'm only seeing this one recording of it (on a few different albums) on YouTube. Miles sounds like he's having trouble keeping up with Bird.

[pamosmusic]

Is there a definitive recording of this tune by the man himself, Charlie "Yardbird" Parker?

I'm only seeing this one recording of it (on a few different albums) on YouTube. Miles sounds like he's having trouble keeping up with Bird.

Pretty sure this is the only one. In complete savoy in addition to other compilations.

And yeah … Miles would’ve been 21 on this recording I think.

[Bobby Timmons]

I'm sure you can find one if you try hard enough

Then you agree with me.

[AllanAllen]

Miles sounds like he's having trouble keeping up with Bird.

Billie’s Bounce is the same way… did I say that already in this thread or decide not to post it?

I don’t like to learn the Parker/Davis takes by ear.

[lawson-stone]

So here's my mm1-14 played with the backing track at about 170. Still fumbling mm. 5-6 still but otherwise feeling pretty good about trying to advance the tempo a little more each day. Also, really loving the sound of the Seymour Duncan PhatCat pickup (P90 in Humbucker case) on the Epiphone Zephyr Regent re-issue through the Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb.

[Mick-7]

So here's my mm1-14 played with the backing track at about 170. Still fumbling mm. 5-6 still but otherwise feeling pretty good about trying to advance the tempo a little more each day.

Making progress

What string gauge do you have there, 13's? Look pretty thick.

[mr. beaumont]

I don’t like to learn the Parker/Davis takes by ear.

Trumpet/Alto in "unison" seems to be the toughest thing for my ears to pick out. Gets "smeary."

[lawson-stone]

Making progress

What string gauge do you have there, 13's? Look pretty thick.

All my archtops are strung with TI Jazz Swing 012 except for the ES175 which when I got it, I only had a set of TIJS 013 to put on it. But I've been on 012-052 for as long as I've played jazz.

[AllanAllen]

Trumpet/Alto in "unison" seems to be the toughest thing for my ears to pick out. Gets "smeary."

Smeary is a good way to describe it. That combo seems to have the most notes that aren’t on my guitar.

[grahambop]

Looks like Bird's first recording of the tune was in 1947 with Dizzy Gillespie and Lennie Tristano, I'd like to hear it!

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)