Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[GuyBoden]

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)

That's a better version to my ears, note that Parker starts without the triplet.

[Christian Miller]

I'm trying to cut down, lol.


Oh I spent time playing family of dominants into each other. I just disagree that it provides a good insight into the way, for example, the bars 15- 16 back to top of Donna Lee works. In those bars you get as characteristic and unambiguous 7-3 voice leading right on the bar lines as you'll find in any jazz recording and Bach composition. The analysis buries the 7-3 movements inside the scales over the bar lines.



Thanks, but one of the things I worked very hard on was to internalize the fretboard so I don't have to think of licks in a derivative way. I can orient any lick to the chord of the moment. You don't lose anything (except practice hours). You can play the same ideas but your organization match what you hear and the harmony. It becomes a practice habit. I know you are working on the intervallic view. Maybe you'll come to like this view at some point (however brief that moment might be).

Yeah I mean I do know the fretboard in the way you describe as well. I would consider it part of learning one’s instrument.

If it comes across sometimes like I'm being patronising, bear in mind it's because I have absolutely no idea how you play. The ability to talk eloquently online about music theory does not indicate to an ability to play - and vice versa. You may be an absolute beast or a rank beginner and I honestly don't know. So while I say, that doesn't mean I assume you're not a good player, it does mean that I don't really have much context for any of this.

On the other hand debating the value of the ideas of someone like Barry Harris seems.... A more or less complete waste of time. He knew more about this music than any of us could ever hope to, and some amazing students including many greats of jazz.

Doesn't mean it's right for you. Either you find it useful or you don't. But there's not much to debate there. (Although I can't imagine Barry would have recommended not learning how to construct all the chords etc on a given root note.) They are one of a number of things I have got a lot of use out of, and I recommend them.

For my own part, I have tried to explain why something like his approach to minor II V's might be useful and why one might want to practice that way. It took me a fair amount of time to get my head around it.

My analysis was an (old) attempt to reflect Barry’s way of teaching it. (Or maybe more accurately one aspect of Barry's teaching.) Not a lot more than that.

No analysis gives a complete picture.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mick-7]

Here’s the version Bird did with Tristano, Billy Bauer etc. Actually it was recorded later in 1947 than the well-known version with Miles.

Personnel: Barry Ulanov And His All Star Metronome Jazzmen
Fats Navarro tpt; Charlie Parker alt; Lennis Tristano p; Billy Bauer g; Tommy Potter bs; Buddy Rich d.
WOR Mutual Studios, New York City - Saturday, November 8, 1947.

Online discographies suggest that the earliest version by Bird was with Dizzy in 1945, but I can’t find that anywhere. (It’s on the Philology label so is probably some kind of bootleg/broadcast type thing.)

Oh, I see, he reduced the tempo for Miles sake.....

Billy Bauer: guitar - I bet he's glad he wasn't asked to solo on this!

[Christian Miller]

Miles wrote it tho

[Mick-7]

Miles wrote it tho

The Charlie Parker Omnibook credits it to Charlie (?)

Oh, there's some controversy about it....

Authorship. "Donna Lee" was originally attributed to Charlie Parker on the original 78-rpm recordings and was copyrighted under his name in 1947. However, in various interviews and publications since, Miles Davis has claimed to be the composer.

Heck, nothing new about that, Miles claimed to have composed many other people's tunes! It was copyrighted by Parker!

[pamosmusic]

The Charlie Parker Omnibook credits it to Charlie (?)

This is standard Donna Lee lore.

Miles probably wrote it.

Who knows why it ended up that way …

Charlie Parker was the big cheese at the time and miles wasn’t well known. People cared less about songwriting provenance at the time. Publishers were famously uninterested in properly crediting black musicians in particular. All of the above. None of the above.

Christian maybe knows more?

[Christian Miller]

Well exhibit A is this known Miles composition of the same era

Which to me sounds much more like DL than any Parker composition I can think of. Maybe you can think of one?

I would say the heavy use of running scalar eighth notes is note something that shows up so much in Bird's heads... At least the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Miles talked about learning 'running style trumpet' when he was getting it together.

[Bobby Timmons]

Why would Miles's word be taken? He was the jacker of all jackers. Read the wiki article:

Although Davis claimed being the author, noted composer, arranger Gil Evans in a radio interview on WKCR FM, NYC stated publicly that the true author of the piece was drummer Norman "Tiny" Khan who taught the melody to Davis who then taught it to Parker.

Donna Lee - Wikipedia

[Tal_175]

If it comes across sometimes like I'm being patronising, bear in mind it's because I have absolutely no idea how you play.

That's OK, I've come to accept it as your internet voice.

[Christian Miller]

Why would Miles's word be taken? He was the jacker of all jackers. Read the wiki article:

Although Davis claimed being the author, noted composer, arranger Gil Evans in a radio interview on WKCR FM, NYC stated publicly that the true author of the piece was drummer Norman "Tiny" Khan who taught the melody to Davis who then taught it to Parker.

Donna Lee - Wikipedia

That sounds classic - miles stealing it off someone else then getting annoyed when he got it stolen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[grahambop]

Before bebop there was rebop.

[Christian Miller]

Before bebop there was rebop.

The internet is a wonderful thing (sometimes)

Intriguingly different tho, this version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lawson-stone]

This is standard Donna Lee lore.

Miles probably wrote it.

Who knows why it ended up that way …

Charlie Parker was the big cheese at the time and miles wasn’t well known. People cared less about songwriting provenance at the time. Publishers were famously uninterested in properly crediting black musicians in particular. All of the above. None of the above.

Christian maybe knows more?

Not just lore. There is a quite careful analysis in a volume edited by Dave Oliphant called The Bebop Revolution in Words and Music. The chapter by Douglas Parker "'Donna Lee' and the Ironies of Bebop" makes a solid case, tracing the whole story and the musical lines of dependence, that Miles Davis composed the tune and even talks a bit about why Davis did not seem able to play his own composition very well. It's a very interesting read loaded with musical examples.

[grahambop]

The internet is a wonderful thing (sometimes)

Intriguingly different tho, this version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like Miles didn’t learn it properly from Tiny!

[Christian Miller]

That's OK, I've come to accept it as your internet voice.

It is slightly in jest as well FWIW. Though I daresay that doesn't always come across.

[Christian Miller]

Sounds like Miles didn’t learn it properly from Tiny!

Wouldn't be the last time he would play a tune wrong lol....

[Tal_175]

I bet it was Miles who called the tempo being the confident young man he was.

[Christian Miller]

I bet it was Miles who called the tempo being the confident young man he was.

I'm going to accept that as true in lieu of other evidence.

[Bobby Timmons]

That sounds classic - Miles stealing it off someone else then getting annoyed when he got it stolen.

Ha!

[sgcim]

The internet is a wonderful thing (sometimes)

Intriguingly different tho, this version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aaron asked me to transcribe that tune for him before he went on the Phil Schaap Show to talk about the origin of DL. I told him there were some similarities, but it was obviously a different tune based on "Indiana" Tiny was amazing, the guy was a drummer, yet he was able to write something like that! There's proof that Fats Navarro improvised a line very similar to DL that was recorded a few months before the first version. Listen to his entrance at 1:32
.

We had this discussion here about this nine yeas ago!
It sure sounds more like the way Fats played than The Prince of Darkness played. According to a pianist I used to play with, Miles used to get booed off the stand when he played with Bird back then.
My guess is that jazz back then was an aural language that was passed down during jam sessions where guys developed "lines" over popular chord progressions like "Indiana". Aaron didn't refer to DL by name, he referred to it as the "line" that they played on Indiana.
Aaron was so big back then, he was being referred to as the "white Bird". He told me that he saw Bird while he was walking down Broadway at that time, and Bird said, "Don't you try to hide from me. I know who you are!"

But someone had to write out the line that Miles and Bird played in unison, and the P of D might have been cunning enough to do it. Who knows?
"Only the Shadow knows..."

[Christian Miller]

Aaron asked me to transcribe that tune for him before he went on the Phil Schaap Show to talk about the origin of DL. I told him there were some similarities, but it was obviously a different tune based on "Indiana" Tiny was amazing, the guy was a drummer, yet he was able to write something like that! There's proof that Fats Navarro improvised a line very similar to DL that was recorded a few months before the first version. Listen to his entrance at 1:32
.

We had this discussion here about this nine yeas ago!
It sure sounds more like the way Fats played than The Prince of Darkness played. According to a pianist I used to play with, Miles used to get booed off the stand when he played with Bird back then.
My guess is that jazz back then was an aural language that was passed down during jam sessions where guys developed "lines" over popular chord progressions like "Indiana". Aaron didn't refer to DL by name, he referred to it as the "line" that they played on Indiana.
Aaron was so big back then, he was being referred to as the "white Bird". He told me that he saw Bird while he was walking down Broadway at that time, and Bird said, "Don't you try to hide from me. I know who you are!"

But someone had to write out the line that Miles and Bird played in unison, and the P of D might have been cunning enough to do it. Who knows?
"Only the Shadow knows..."

Again the porous border between improvisation and composition….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GuyBoden]

Here's a few practice licks from Bars 1-5, transposed into C Major changes.

I'm trying to create practice licks, whilst learning the tune.

Maybe, they might or might not be useful licks for other players too.

[bluenote61]

Here's a couple of very usable licks from Bars 1-4, transposed into C Major changes.

I'm trying to create usable licks whilst learning the tune.

They might be useful licks for other players too.

Thanks.
But as a note, in lick 1 I think the resolution would be at the c# (3rd of A), not at the following e.
In lick 2 the resolution would be in the next bar, adding b and resolvi g to a, the 5th of D7.

[lawson-stone]

Aaron asked me to transcribe that tune for him before he went on the Phil Schaap Show to talk about the origin of DL. I told him there were some similarities, but it was obviously a different tune based on "Indiana" Tiny was amazing, the guy was a drummer, yet he was able to write something like that! There's proof that Fats Navarro improvised a line very similar to DL that was recorded a few months before the first version. Listen to his entrance at 1:32
.

We had this discussion here about this nine yeas ago!
It sure sounds more like the way Fats played than The Prince of Darkness played. According to a pianist I used to play with, Miles used to get booed off the stand when he played with Bird back then.
My guess is that jazz back then was an aural language that was passed down during jam sessions where guys developed "lines" over popular chord progressions like "Indiana". Aaron didn't refer to DL by name, he referred to it as the "line" that they played on Indiana.
Aaron was so big back then, he was being referred to as the "white Bird". He told me that he saw Bird while he was walking down Broadway at that time, and Bird said, "Don't you try to hide from me. I know who you are!"

But someone had to write out the line that Miles and Bird played in unison, and the P of D might have been cunning enough to do it. Who knows?
"Only the Shadow knows..."

I really appreciated this post and its insight. Thank you!

[lawson-stone]

Again the porous border between improvisation and composition….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Especially among players who knew each other, played the same gigs, and were part of the same musical moment and movement. How could they not have ideas bleed across and among themselves?