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Let's see if I can put this in words. For me, there is a smoke air to Minor Jazz Blues tonalities that Major tonalities just don't have.
It was after coming to this forum that I realized that I like my Blues (whether Jazz Blues or Traditional Blues) with some minor thirds, minor sevenths, and with that "Blue Note" in their somewhere - whether it be the b5 on the minor pentatonic or the b3 on the Major Pentatonic).
Happy Blues lacks the drama that I seek.
This is a personal preference, but do you kind of feel the same way?
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04-16-2017 10:46 PM
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i always thought that the minor third and the minor seventh were referred to as "blues notes" and that the blues tonality was those two flatted notes played directly against the major chords in the accompaniment.
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Minor Blues
Major Blues
Dominant Blues
Just my observations and thoughts...
With minor blues if you go much jazzier than augmented or diminished lines between the changes, blues feel can be easily lost, unless the progression includes something like a six b579 to flat six to five altered kind of thing, or supports the major minor sound for the one and/or four, or similar departures offering the jazzier ideas a place to express themselves, etc.
With major blues there are more jazzy possibilities that maintain the sound, but yeah, that sound is the major blues sound.
With dominant blues there is much more jazz development space available that is very resistant to weakening of the distinct blues sound. I think dominant blues sounds darker, smokier, deeper, more serious, meaner, and just bluesier than minor or major blues, and pressing more jazz ideas into it continues to make it sound even more so.
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by robertm2000
No, seriously, what's the blue note
I just go by what several of my instructional books teach, and while they some reveal that there are several blue notes, depending on the harmony, etc.., ultimately the b3 with the Major Pentatonic and the b5, with the Minor Pentatonic, are pointed out consistently.
But, who is to say who is right?
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Interesting question.
As a Pop/ R&B Player/ Rock Writer interested in Expanding my Theory and filling in Gaps etc. I have always used expanded Voicings and often worked off specific voicings in a Song versus more fluid ' comping' that most Jazzers use.
However some Modern Player /Composers like Metheny and others do have specific voicings that are part of their Songs -kind of a carry over from Pop and increase the Audience ability to recognize the Tune - not on Standards but on Originals.
A difference between Jazz and Pop - not a hard line - but a difference.
And this leads to the next difference- I tend to gravitate toward Minor Voicings also -and especially Blues BUT-
some of this is a limitation which I have because in Rock/ Pop I have a tendency to want to turn a Major Chord into a
Dominant Type chord - for NO reason- lol.
And as a more untrained Theory Wise Guitarist I - as many Guitarists growing up in the Rock Era- we don't often Jam or Practice Improv. on Major 7 Major 9th Chords- a limitation for sure.
I am not a teacher - but I suspect the two biggest obstacles that even a good Rock Player ( not a Music school Grad though)
has to playing Jazz is :
The timing is more strict on Solos - it's actually more 'free' at higher levels but you can't slop up the Time unless it's intentional and even Polyrhythms will line up to the bar lines eventually..
And Soloing over Major ii- V- Is is more a problem when we get to the I chord because we can't turn it into a Dominant 7th or a Tonicized Dominant 7th like an AC/ DC Tune etc. or most 80's Rock.
I always liked Major 7th and extensions but did not solo on them as much and I do
generally like Minor Blues but I don't like Blues to stay in one Key...so I am expanding my Pallete so to speak .
I think not growing up on Standards and many Rock Stars didn' t Jam/Solo on Major 7th etc. Chords so we find it easier to Solo on Dominant or Minor chords.
I like to 'dirty up ' Major 7 type chords by flatting the 5th or using sharp 11ths in the Composition but it is a different 'Color'.
I wanted to ask the true Jazzers on here-
IF you see a Major 7 or Major 9/6 etc. on a Chart - a Substitution of a Major 7#11 would not be acceptable unless accepted by others for that arrangement and depends on the Melody - right ?
I notice I don't hear ii- V -I #11 as often but it seems to work as a compositional device when voiced well- more my interest.
But I am curious about the last 50 years of Jazz- if the Major 7 sharp 11 is used as the
I chord sometimes in ii - V- I s - my guess is fairly rare in Standards ( ? ).
Also -Rock Groups like the Allman Brothers who had a very Pro Rhythm Section and even the Rolling Stones sometimes had Major 9th sections - but I still think most Rockers Solo on Major 7ths rarely- which is along with timing precision
one of the biggest ' Conversions' to Playing Jazz - and even being a more complete Musician IMO and I am still making this Transition despite being advanced technically.
So back to OP - Yes I like Minor Blues better but a little Major Section then back to the Home Minor Key will be even better
so I like Minors better for Soloing - but part of that is my limitation- which I want to correct.
Not suggesting that's the OPs reason- damn Jazzers can Solo over any Chord and make it sound good- Grrr.
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Doesn't it depend on what the tune is? Barbados is different from Billie's Bounce. Equinox is different from Mr. PC. Minor league by Duke Pearson is a GREAT minor blues. Straight No Chaser is a great jazz blues. My ears have grown weary of other tunes on both forms.
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Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Strong-week harmonic patterns are a big part of all music and jazz as well. Over any static chord you can generally play things like:
in–out–in,
tonic–dominant–tonic,
maj7–maj7#11–maj7
etc. etc.
In the same way, instead of going "back" in that strong-weak pattern, you can simply resolve the weak side harmony into the next chord.
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Originally Posted by yaclaus
Duchbopper put of a recent thread on the ES-125 he bought and posted a couple of video examples of the tone. His second video was a Jazz Blues and while he said it was mainly to show the guitar's tone, I loved it. That was the kind of Blues that I always come back to.
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Hopefully, Dutchbopper will not mind me reposting a copy of his clip here in this thread. It is a nice mix of chords and single lines (which by the way, helps add a freshness to solos. I have had more than one associate/friend complain about Jazz solos that don't have chords, such as a Grant Green CD we were listening to).
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I like 'em all, but a good minor blues is a heck of a lot of fun. My favorite part is bar 4, and the turnaround
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Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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I think the bluest blue note is the note about halfway between m3 and M3
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by medblues
A Parker blues is the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "major blues."
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I find my blue notes in the microtones, between b3 and 3, b5 and 5, and 6 and b7. But just about any note is a blue note with the right chord underneath.
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Originally Posted by medblues
Don't forget just because the chords are major your pitch collection doesn't have to be too.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Relatively few bop heads on minor blues, interestingly.
I would say in general I am better at major blues than minor. Minor has some specific challenges, and in general I would say my minor tonality is not as developed as my major, so I rarely call minor, does come up though. Needs work!
Here's one of my favourite minor blues heads - Django:
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I'm not sure the dominant/major distinction is one Charlie Parker would have understood.
The default comping chords at this point would have been major or maj6 at this point leaving the 7 up for grabs. For instance a 12 bar blues would be more like:
F6 F7 | Bb6 Bo7 | F6 | F7 |
Bb7 | Bo7 etc
Linearly, Parker frequently mixes up major and dominant language much like his influence, Lester Young.
So it's not such a huge leap to major blues tunes like dance of infidels and blues for Alice.
Even in the case that accompanists played dom7 chords, soloists frequently still used maj7s in their lines.
A classic example is Miles on Now's the Time against Dizzy comping 7s and 7#11s.
Berklee has tidied up everything retrospectively but actually muddies the waters where bop is concerned.
As always Barry Harris is my guide on this stuff.Last edited by christianm77; 04-17-2017 at 02:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by M-ster
I am basing this on something you know, not just making sweeping statements for the hell of it.
1) Barry Harris (who was there)
2) Transcribing Parker
3) Transcribing Parker's influences & contemporaries
Once you get out of the theory books and real books, actual jazz is wild place. The great soloists were pretty relaxed about what we now think of as chordal correctness.
But the 6th chord or even, god forbid, a major triad, allows lots of scope to play either 7s or b7.
The distinction between standard blues and major blues is pretty much non existent melodically. Take Au Privave for example:
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Standard blues changes, right? Notice the maj 7 in bar2. Of course the chord at this point is Bb7, so you could say it's Bb7#11, but it seems to me that Parker is thinking of a line pretty much in F major with LNT's. At the end of bar 4 he sets up a move to IV by using a b7.
Also what the hell is going on with the Real Book changes F | Gm7 C7 |??? Listen to the recording and tell me what you hear. :-) But I like that there's just an F triad written underneath. F triad is a decent comping choice.
Now listen to the accompaniment of Blues for Alice. Fmaj7 as the first chord? Hard to hear, but I can't hear an E. Transcribe says it's an F triad.
Of course it must by a Fmaj7 cos the melody has an E a few beats later? Berklee thinking, my friend.
As a player in the bop and swing style I find it helps if I treat major chords as dominant chords whenever I want. I think most straightahead players would have no problem with this idea.
Vice versa? Here is the Miles solo BTW - both major and flat 7s on clearly dominant (7#11)accompaniment
YMMV, Miles was not a harmonically descriptive improvisor compared to the second gen bop guys IMO (which you will discover if you transcribe him), and maybe at this point not yet a great soloist.
So for me it is very very helpful in bebop blues soloing to be able to view the I chord as major if I want it to be in any blues. This is how I play this stuff and no-one has yet torn me apart for playing E's on the first 4 of an F blues. In fact, to me it sounds much more like bop.
Berklee style modern jazz theory doesn't have a tremendous amount to do with bebop common practice, once you get your ears on it. Modern theory best describes the playing of musicians who have been trained in modern theory.
The textbooks are of course the records, but Barry helps when it comes to bop.
Later jazz is different again. Dominant blues sounds more Blue Note to me.Last edited by christianm77; 04-17-2017 at 04:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by medblues
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players