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Yeah, it's a dim7 arp starting and ending on Bb
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02-05-2019 08:37 AM
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The A is just part of the diminished scale. When demonstrating BH played the first chord and a diminished scale and says "that's what it is...that scale is the song." that second part I found very interesting, as off the hand remarks like that coming from him usually imply something big/important.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Last edited by JCat; 02-05-2019 at 10:05 AM.
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Hey that’s another thought someone hit me with the other day asking about writing out charts.
Like many iim7 chords iim7b5 often anticipate the root of the V7 in the top voice.
It’s reasonably common to write this as a iim11 but we don’t do this with IIm7b5 chords, we don’t have iim11b5
One of those things
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by christianm77
m7/-5 is also referred to as "half diminished". (The difference is a b7 compared to a bb7 "dim7"). The b7 (D) resolves into the major 3rd (C#) of the next chord. That has been my understanding and I like the sound. But I'm open to the possibility that I'm wrong regarding the original version...
By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
she also answered that question about the #iv half to iv- scale outline, and she basically said the same thing as we thought, but she plays the change even in 1 bar phrase.
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Originally Posted by JCat
There's nothing 'wrong' with using the Em7b5 A7 progression. I would say this is pretty standard to most jazz players. If you like that sound, you are not alone.
By the way C# is the 13th in Esus4add13/-5 as played in the workshop referred to above.
When I first listened to the original I didn't hear the C# (bb7). I'll have a closer look.Originally Posted by JCat
x x 8 6 5 5
Or Bb, Db/C#, E, A
Which is a Bbo7 with an A instead of a G on top.
If you want to call it an Esus4add13/-5, be my guest. You are introducing a bass note which I don't hear, so is entirely theoretical and seems a little OTT. You could also call it Eo7add11. Which is easier. But as Peter plays Bb in the bass, it's a Bbo7(maj7) in this case.
Dim chord with non dim chord tones in the melody aren't terribly unusual.
TBH, I tend to go with Peter on this stuff. He's quite good at jazz guitar, you know :-) And he knows the repertoire inside out. He will have checked out the original score and so on.
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Oh yeah so Joe PM'd me yesterday re: the progression
C --> F#m7b5 --> Fm6 --> C (or whatever)
What to play on that.
I say, D7 to Bb7 or Am6 to Fm6
But if there's two chords per bar, that's hard. So you outline the dominant chord 1 2 3 5 or use a permutation, you know like Giant Steps tetrachords.
Barry teaches this type of outline a lot.
e.g. D E F# A Bb C D F on | F#m7b5 Fm6 |
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Getting back to Stella, the A does eventually resolve to G against the Bbo7, so it can be thought a long accented non chord tone...
In the same way the first chord of Mahler's Adagietto for strings is not a maj7 chord in the jazz sense.... not really....
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by sgcim
It’s not broadway, it’s Hollywood in this case- and Hollywood scores in this period are obviously coming out of European romanticism (not least because of the many European composers who ended up there.)Last edited by christianm77; 02-06-2019 at 03:44 AM.
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Yes interesting to read about Victor Young (composed Stella), in his youth he studied piano and violin in Warsaw and Paris.
Victor Young - Wikipedia
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm guilty of being blocked by my own perceptions (I guess I heard what I wanted to hear).
The second time it appears in the first chorus (melody notes Bb-A) it's also Edim7.
In the 2nd chorus (change of key, Harmonica lead) the melody notes are D-C# played over a Ddim7 the first time and Fdim7 (which essentially is the same chord) the second time.
Now I just have to "get it through my skull" that "that scale is the song" as there are a lot of other things going on in between these changes. My own personal documentation of this song contains zero (!) dim7-chords, but a few m7/-5 (Half-dims). But this is the first time I address the original, so maybe I'll rearrange my interpretation. I still enjoy this thread. Awesome input guys.
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Originally Posted by JCat
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Originally Posted by JCat
I’d still call it a Bbo7, same difference note wise but that’s what seems to be in the bass.
Personally this is how I learnt much of the harmony I know FWIW comparing versions of changes.
In general the move in jazz during the 50s was a way from dim7s and towards ii v’s. It’s good to look out for this stuff, because who actually likes playing on diminished chords?
So you have learnt we can make this sub
Bbo7 becomes Em7b5 A7b9 in Bb
Or
Io7 becomes #VIm7b5 VII7b9
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Originally Posted by joe2758
I quite like dim7 in the last 8 too... the original changes have quite a few differences not just the first chord.
But, you can solo on the old changes with the new changes provided you aren’t a spanner and put a b5 on the A7b9. Sounds a bit crap when I did it. That sound should be dim/harmonic minor mode V/h-W scale with a regular 5 - not the altered scale.
London pianist Sam Leak suggests C/Db as a sub for the first chord as a way to keep everyone happy.
Db C E G (A)
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Here's the right way (minus a few minor changes, literally). Tongue in cheek. but this is what i like
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Try Gm6 instead of Em7b5 A7 in bar 10 then:
Dm Bbm6/Db F/C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9
Also Ebminmaj7 instead of Ab7#11
Pretty old school
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Btw I just rediscovered the best jazz chord wanker’s book “Dick Hyman’s 100 songs every musician should know.”
There’s a guy who likes his original and correct changes. More so than human beings, I have heard.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
do you mean Gmin6 to A7 or just Gmin6 for the bar?
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Dm Bbm6 (where there was d-7) /Db F (where there was b half to Bbmin) /C Bbo7 Am7b5 D7b9 (where there was fmaj)...then end up on g-7 c7?
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by joe2758
KA PAF info please
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