JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 14) - Tune Up

[TOMMO]

For giggles, a tribute to our pal ragman

Nice and slow, reverby acoustic, trying to be melodic. Fun

Very nice and lyrical, Jeff.

I hear long strings of rapid eighth notes in my mind, but I can't play that fast.

It's hard to construct a melodic line that doesn't restart every 4 bars, but I tried.

Well done neverthe less, rp!

Make the boyfriend take a chorus. Even if he doesn’t play. Show him who’s boss.

[ragman1]

For giggles, a tribute to our pal ragman

Nice and slow, reverby acoustic, trying to be melodic. Fun

Thank you, Jeff, quite delightful :-)

(I don't think the kind of guitar matters much, really, when all's said and done, it's the feel, innit?)

[ragman1]

I do want to say something... at the risk of being long-winded.

This is the Vinson version, very fast.

I find it quite interesting. I think what is 'melodic' in jazz is different to 'melodic' in less esoteric music.

Small kids will respond to simple tunes like 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star' and all that. But stick in some b9s, #9s and b5s and that sort of thing, and it probably wouldn't attract them greatly.

Listening to what Vinson is doing, we can say certain things.

a) It sounds 'jazzy' as opposed to other types of music. It's not simple melodic stuff.

b) However, even jazz-melodic implies something scalar. It contains more arpeggios than straight music (I'm just calling it that) but to be melodic it must also have running lines in it. Whether they correspond to actual set scales is something else but they must have a continuous feel to them.

c) What Vinson is playing, like a lot of jazz, doesn't quite fit the chords - but it works. I think that's the point with a lot of jazz, that it fits but not quite.

d) But it's HOW it doesn't fit that matters. It fits in its own way. It's not all over the place and just wrong to the ear.

e) Quite what the answer to that is I'm not sure.

Incidentally, as I keep saying, it doesn't have to be fast. Here's a version by Wes. His single-note lines don't quite 'fit' either. He's a master at it.

[ragman1]

It's hard to construct a melodic line that doesn't restart every 4 bars

Well, you've got two bars of each M7 so there's room for a pick-up into the next ii-V (if required, probably not every time). The end of the form is easier because both end and start in D.

But I know what you mean, especially at speed.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, Wes saved his uptempo take on Tune Up (although this still isn't UP up) for six string bass

[ragman1]

Yes, he did both, plus other takes up to nine or something. Obviously not an easy one for him unless there are other reasons. But it's quite interesting he took such a fast tune and did eight slow takes on it.

[lawson-stone]

I hear long strings of rapid eighth notes in my mind, but I can't play that fast.

It's hard to construct a melodic line that doesn't restart every 4 bars, but I tried.

That's the Comins GCS-1 through a Boss ME80, to add reverb. Then to a Little Jazz with the bass all the way down. Mids and highs at about noon. Reverb at 8o'clock. Backing track from an old phone into a Roland KB150. All right into a second, newer, phone.

I liked this a lot. It sounds like you're basically doing key-centered playing, which is perfect for this set of ii-V-I lines, and you have some nice phrases througought.

[Triple_Jazz]

I thought about calligraphy. This is an artist with one brush, one color, and that color is black. Yet, the calligrapher makes art too. It's not an oil painting, but it's art and people appreciate it.

I recall a great LA based saxophonist, Robert Kyle, at a jam. He played an absolutely killer solo and I realized somewhere along the line that he didn't play a lot of notes and he didn't play anything "outside". What he did do was make great melody with great time feel. He made you want to dance and scream.

Then I thought about scat singing, which I've posted about before. It seems to me that your scat singing is very close to your heart. Can players really scat eighth notes at 260bpm? Or are they piecing things together in a different way? My conclusion is that it's a combination of jazz vocabulary and a certain amount of new material. Done well, it's fantastic, but, I wondered, Robert Kyle's solo could easily have been scat sung. Maybe I should think about that.

Jim Hall is my ATF. But, his slow stuff. I didn't enjoy his fast playing nearly as much. I like Carlos Santana - he does it with melody, time and tone. He's no daredevil harmonically and his best stuff isn't particularly fast. Wes is as melodic as anyone and doesn't sound fast (although it seems faster when you actually try to play his stuff).

So, I concluded that I should try to develop a style that makes the most of what I can hear and play -- and not keep trying to do everything. I still ended up with more than enough to work on.

......

This is very insightful. I’m coupling this with John’s advice regarding how to get a better feel. So much of our progress really depends on our psychological discipline, framed from how I glean what your saying. I’m always trying to stuff that extra note in, this always throws me off. If I can just have the discipline to say no more notes are needed and rely on the actual melody being created I may improve my feel. That’s kind of like saying “no” to the donuts that are lying in the box box before you, easier said than done.

[Reg]

Yea Rick... you have a very realistic approach, I really like it. ( I also like your playing).

The tempo thing, well most talk is just good old BS. Right, I mean the best way to learn how to do something... is learn from someone who can't do it.... (had to add... obviously I'm joking)

The time thing, both Macro and Micro is always about Pulse. Even Lage's counting of time wasn't very good but when he plays... he creates a pulse which fills space and points of attack or target beats become easy to see, hear and feel.

You want to be able to play jazz at faster tempos... you need good technique on your instruments. I've been saying this very simple thing for over a decade on this forum... and very few seem to ever get it. It's almost like... if I just keep playing.... I'll eventually have chops. ( most guitarist who put in a year of technical organized practice... get their chops together. You still need to have something to say, but at least you'll be able to say it.)

What you play....... isn't how or what you hear. Almost anyone can hear incredible music at any tempo. You can't play what you can't technically organize on your instrument.

Technical skills help one play the slowest tempos by being able to subdivide and create Feels.

I'm getting a few of my guitars back this week, new frets and all the other BS. Can't wait to post some of these tunes, although I think I'll start a different thread and also break down... "possible approaches" of how to play them... How to get from.... being able to just get through a tune... to actually playing it, taking the music somewhere by choice, your choice.

Nice to see and hear all the posts, still a great thread.

[rpjazzguitar]

I liked this a lot. It sounds like you're basically doing key-centered playing, which is perfect for this set of ii-V-I lines, and you have some nice phrases througought.

Thanks. Just for the sake of discussion, I'll say what I recall about what I was thinking.

I tried focusing on chord tones in earlier takes and I thought it sounded too simplistic. I tried it with tritone subs and I wasn't happy either.

So, as you discerned, I went with tonal centers in order to avoid clams.

I began by thinking, "make a strong melodic statement" and I tried to focus on that throughout. That meant I wasn't going to play a lot of notes, because I can't make good melody at high speed.

I also was aware of not wanting to play 4 bar phrases, so I made an effort (minimally successful) to start my phrases in bars 4 and 8. That way, for example, the shift from Dmaj to Dm7 would occur in the middle of the phrase. To my ear, it's different than finishing up a tidy 4 bar phrase and then starting over a whole step down.

And, finally, I had the song Strike Up the Band (recorded on a Tal Farlow album I had) in mind for some reason and I tried to phrase with it here and there. I quoted it very briefly. I sometimes think about a different song and use the rhythm of that song's melody in my improv as a way of forcing myself out of the well worn ruts.

[John A.]

The tempo thing, well most talk is just good old BS. Right, I mean the best way to learn how to do something... is learn from someone who can't do it.... (had to add... obviously I'm joking)

Hey! I resemble that remark! (Not entirely joking; I rarely give any sort of technique advice because my own is pretty limited, but sometimes I do say stuff that I should probably leave to people who know better what they're talking about.)

You want to be able to play jazz at faster tempos... you need good technique on your instruments. I've been saying this very simple thing for over a decade on this forum... and very few seem to ever get it. It's almost like... if I just keep playing.... I'll eventually have chops. ( most guitarist who put in a year of technical organized practice... get their chops together. You still need to have something to say, but at least you'll be able to say it.)

I think a fair number of us actually get it and think you're right about this. But for a lot of us part-timers, putting in a year of technical practice would come at the expense of, say, learning more tunes or playing with other people. The best we can do is incorporate some degree of technical practice into our routines and hope for incremental improvements.

What you play....... isn't how or what you hear. Almost anyone can hear incredible music at any tempo. You can't play what you can't technically organize on your instrument.

Technical skills help one play the slowest tempos by being able to subdivide and create Feels.

I'm not sure that I agree almost anyone can hear incredible music at any tempo. But for sure, hearing it is not sufficient for playing it. Hearing does not create technique, Organized practice does (stares sheepishly at feet ...)

I'm getting a few of my guitars back this week, new frets and all the other BS. Can't wait to post some of these tunes, although I think I'll start a different thread and also break down... "possible approaches" of how to play them... How to get from.... being able to just get through a tune... to actually playing it, taking the music somewhere by choice, your choice.

Nice to see and hear all the posts, still a great thread.

Looking forward to it.

John

[wzpgsr]

I think a fair number of us actually get it and think you're right about this. But for a lot of us part-timers, putting in a year of technical practice would come at the expense of, say, learning more tunes or playing with other people. The best we can do is incorporate some degree of technical practice into our routines and hope for incremental improvements.

Nails it for me. Helps to have realistic expectations given those limitations, too. Which I really don't, for myself, but that's my personality.

[Peter C]

Hello chaps. Rough and ready, couple of quick (fun) takes - there was a plethora of tracks on YT for this tune. I wasn't really feeling the altered scale on the V, so pretty straight stuff.

[John A.]

The bananas can't be too green, to use a terrible analogy.

I don't know what that means, but no matter. I'm adopting it as my personal motto and standard response to anything anyone says to me.

John
"The bananas can't be too green"

[Peter C]

Nice fluidity, Ronstuff. Great stream of well-executed ideas.

I like the tone of your Heritage, Jeff. Wondering how you record because I'm not hearing any discernible plinking. Killer rhythmic feel.

John A, good to see you really going for it. Dug it a lot.

I didn't hear either of the acoustic takes of you guys.

rpjazzguitar, you certainly know how to find the right notes!

[PickingMyEars]

So I guess I can't add anything to the table then.

Just don't mince my words about technique:

Technique is crucial, that's a given. Yes, there are mechanics and all. But I think we often under estimate how much of our physical technique starts with our ears. Aimee Nolte has a video where she talks about playing fast. She said something like, "you want to play faster, then you gotta listen to a bunch of master musicians playing fast." No amount of Troy Grady will totally remedy up tempo playing if it ain't thoroughly anchored in your ears first.

This is getting a little ridiculous. I guess the teachers that shared this advice were wrong as well.

I mean, my teachers past and present can't possibly know jack shite because their playing ain't worth a listen. Maybe I should ask Wynton Marsalis, Frank Vignola, Larry Goldenings, and the like about the caliber of playing that my teachers bring to the table.

I see a new jam. I get excited. I post my take. I get constructive criticism. I roll with it because I dig the community.

I offer my two cents and all of a sudden, I am a charlatan.

Reg, I do dig your playing. That said, who made you King of Everything?

How come I'm not having these arguments with Jonathan Stout or DaShigsta on the forum? I've never seen them call anyone else's process or advice into question? Where are Jonathan Stout's fingerings? I almost had lessons with Jonathan when I lived in LA. I would love to study with DaShigsta as well. And I've had a lesson or two with some other lions young and old of JGF as well. So...

A King needs legitimacy? So why are we making Reg king of JGF?

[mr. beaumont]

So I guess I can't add anything to the table then.

Just don't mince my words about technique:

Technique is crucial, that's a given. Yes, there are mechanics and all. But I think we often under estimate how much of our physical technique starts with our ears. Aimee Nolte has a video where she talks about playing fast. She said something like, "you want to play faster, then you gotta listen to a bunch of master musicians playing fast." No amount of Troy Grady will totally remedy up tempo playing if it ain't thoroughly anchored in your ears first.

This is getting a little ridiculous. I guess the teachers that shared this advice were wrong as well.

I mean, my teachers past and present can't possibly know jack shite because their playing ain't worth a listen. Maybe I should ask Wynton Marsalis, Frank Vignola, Larry Goldenings, and the like about the caliber of playing that my teachers bring to the table.

I see a new jam. I get excited. I post my take. I get constructive criticism. I roll with it because I dig the community.

I offer my two cents and all of a sudden, I am a charlatan.

Reg, I do dig your playing. That said, who made you King of Everything?

Chill man. That stuff you shared is great.

I feel like I started this, so I'll speak up. All of this stuff about hearing bigger segments of music to handle fast tempos is good stuff. But that's not my problem. I can "hang" on fast tunes. I'm not intimidated by them, and my time doesn't suffer on them. I already have a dozen ways to "cope" with a tune that's faster than my comfort zone.

What I want to do is work on my picking, so if I hear a line of picked 8ths at 260 I can do it. It has everything to do with mechanics, and being lazy when I was younger. I just have to put in some fucking work, that's all.

Sometimes it's about deeper, more macro shit. My situation isn't. Its about putting in work and not being a lazy guitar player like I have for nearly 30 years.

[mr. beaumont]

I like the tone of your Heritage, Jeff. Wondering how you record because I'm not hearing any discernible plinking. Killer rhythmic feel.

Thanks, having a good time feel is of utmost importance to me.

So for recording, use a Yamaha THR 10ii. I put it right on the tabletop, and proo my phone up against something just a few inches in front of it (a beer works great)

I try to make sure my guitar is about 3 feet away. The amp is set just a bit louder than speaking volume (about halfway up)

This seems to capture the amp mostly with very little plink from the guitar.

Should mention too, with flatwounds, particularly old ones like I like, the 575 does not have a ton of acoustic volume. My laminate Godin Kingpin, for example, is much louder unplugged.

[John A.]

Thanks, having a good time feel is of utmost importance to me.

So for recording, use a Yamaha THR 10ii. I put it right on the tabletop, and proo my phone up against something just a few inches in front of it (a beer works great)

I try to make sure my guitar is about 3 feet away. The amp is set just a bit louder than speaking volume (about halfway up)

This seems to capture the amp mostly with very little plink from the guitar.

Should mention too, with flatwounds, particularly old ones like I like, the 575 does not have a ton of acoustic volume. My laminate Godin Kingpin, for example, is much louder unplugged.

How are you capturing the backing track?

John

[TOMMO]

Hello chaps. Rough and ready, couple of quick (fun) takes - there was a plethora of tracks on YT for this tune. I wasn't really feeling the altered scale on the V, so pretty straight stuff.

Good stuff Peter - I liked the staccato approach, although keeping it up for the length of time you did can be a bit too much...

[Gabor]

For giggles, a tribute to our pal ragman

Nice and slow, reverby acoustic, trying to be melodic. Fun

I am always amazed how cool could be a flattop sound, when a jazz musician picks/articulates it. Even coolest, richest and more jazz than a over high cut "standard jazz" sound.

[djg]

Yeah, Wes saved his uptempo take on Tune Up (although this still isn't UP up) for six string bass

dunno if this plays in the US. wes in indianapolis mid 50s playing tune up.

[mr. beaumont]

How are you capturing the backing track?

John

Ah yes, that'd be a helpful bit of info, wouldn't it?

The track is playing through the same amp.

[TOMMO]

So here's my modest contribution - in the spirit of the threads another first take. I came up with the arrangement (if you want to call it that) for the head a couple of years ago and still like it. It fills up the sound at slower tempos. As always: any suggestions and comments welcome.

[Reg]

yea some more cool posts... Just a little more on Tempo and technique. No one needs or has to do anything, it's always cool to just play, enjoy and have fun. Disclaimer... I'm no one, just a musician.

But I would think it's just very obvious that... maybe an analogy, You want to take a fast car on a fast course... you need some driving skills or your going to crash and burn.

Ears, hearing and all the rest is very important, if not the most important... at least it can be. But when you get ahead of yourself, you develop bad, or at least not good habits that usually don't have the best results etc...

We've had a year of not playing gigs etc... how many more tunes, jam sessions, getting together with friends etc...
Have you improved? (just a note... I quit playing for 8 or 9 months, loved it.)

A simple practice plan... can you play,

Any chord... two octave arpeggio... starting on each chord tone from 6th string up to 1st string (chord and inversions) Start slow to get a plan then... play faster than you can and try and stay in tempo with mistakes.

Any chord... two octaves arpeggio, same format but with all extensions.

Then the same thing with scales...Some use the three minors as organization for generating the 21 scales.

Using whatever picking approach you choose... just be consistent and with some coherent organization... so that it will repeat. That's it.... within 6 months you'll start to have some chops. Your ears will work because your training them to hear basic musical tools. I apologize for talking too much... Next pot will be just about playing.