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Ok I started getting lessons from Jimmy Bruno's workshop 4 years ago (I did it for around a year and some) Since then I have been working on my jazz playing using Jimmy's key center approach to improvisation mostly centered on creating melodies using your ear. I have progressed after his lessons using arpeggios, targeting notes and using modal interchange for sub dominants. I feel like i want to get lessons again to help me and I'm wondering if there is another teacher who you think would match this method of improvising. Any suggestions would be great.
Quick note: I recently took a lesson from a "internet influencer" guitarist. Great guitarist but we spent a lot of time talking about the differences on how we hear / think of scale degrees as we improvise. He thinks chord by chord and I think with functional harmony and key centers. So if we are in the key of C and G7 goes by he would think of G B D F as 1 3 5 b7 and I would think of it as 5 7 2 4.
Quick note 2: You may wonder why I do it this way. It matches how I hear music... meaning when I hear the 5 chord go by I hear its arpeggio as 5 7 2 4 within the key because I hear with solfege so I hear So Ti Re Fa. Hope that makes sense... so the reason is to match what I hear with how I'm thinking. It makes transferring melodies much easier for me.
Here are a couple of cuts of me playing...
Autumn Leaves
Summertime (Solo at 55 seconds)
Here is the kind of music I do in my band...
Last edited by tonejunkie; 12-18-2020 at 10:15 PM.
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12-18-2020 07:20 PM
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Not sure what you're asking, but, to me it sounds like you're making the changes as opposed to skating over them (most of the time anyway). Also, I don't know how advanced key centre approaches can get given that it is seen as way of simplifying things. Many players delineate V vs I as opposed to just thinking I over everything, and although this too is a form of simplification, it can get advanced with a high number of possible substitutions. Check out the George Benson Method thread that features Peter Farrell who might be a teacher who gets into advanced subbing for the Tonic / Dominant thing (especially Dominant - for obvious reasons...)
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If you want a substitute Jimmy Bruno teacher then, to be honest, I don't know. However, most teachers will teach tonal centres because it's one way of approaching a chord progression. Therefore you may find yourself covering the same ground, stuff you already know.
But tonal centres aren't the only way to solo, they're just one way. They're a tool amongst other tools. My thinking would be not to go backwards, as it were, but expand on what you've got already. I'd research different teachers and see what they have to offer. Bernstein, for example.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Maybe I'm missing something but it seems this method only goes so far. Songs with more complex chord progressions have a need for analyzing each chord for what scales work best for each. The trick is knowing when key centers work and when more analysis is needed - and connecting those changes so it doesn't sound like you're just switching scales.
This may not apply to those that have developed amazing ears!
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Originally Posted by bobby d
Really what this hole thread is about is my trying to find anyone else who teaches and thinks of playing changes like this.
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If you think of the V chord as starting on the fifth degree, so G7 isn't 1 3 5 b7 but rather 5 7 2 4, then what happens when a song changes key or gets ambigous as to key?
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As far as the Ambiguous key thing I have not really had any experiences like that yet. I've made most of my money playing funk music, reggae, and soul jazz. I'm not really a side man any more I just play my instrumental music in my own band so I don't really encounter anything ambiguous that I bet a bunch of you get. The standard jazz tunes I've really worked on are several Jazz Blues tunes, Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Solar, and Satin Doll.
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tonejunkie -
I'd like to know what you mean by 'advanced' key centre playing. I mean, a key centre is a key centre. However, it can be very ambiguous to know exactly when they start and finish. Is that what you mean?
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Disclaimer, I am not a great player, but I think your approach is perfectly natural. As long as you can still manage things like secondary dominants, alterations, and substitutions with such an approach it sounds fine.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Here is another example I have struggled with... I wanted to try some altered scale sounds over the V7 chord. I would see that the altered scale is spelled 1 b2 b3 3 b5 #5 b7 but when I hear it in real music as well as to make it useful to me I have to re-spell the scale 5 b6 b7 7 b2 b3 4. With this thread I was trying to see if there is anyone who does this. I will be learning all the lines that others play but just with those sounds in mind. I have been working on this in isolation for a fair bit...
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Originally Posted by charlieparker
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I think what I'm going to do is just find someone to give me lessons on how they go about creating lines using the chord by chord method and just translate it so my ears will be happy. I just am working on this stuff so much I really want to talk to someone else doing it this way.
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Originally Posted by tonejunkie
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Originally Posted by tonejunkie
learn jazz vocabulary using this key center approach due to how I hear lines on recordings
if we are playing C Blues and a teacher tells me to play F Mixolydian over F7 its confusing
I wanted to try some altered scale sounds over the V7 chord. I would see that the altered scale is spelled 1 b2 b3 3 b5 #5 b7 but when I hear it in real music as well as to make it useful to me I have to re-spell the scale 5 b6 b7 7 b2 b3 4. With this thread I was trying to see if there is anyone who does this. I will be learning all the lines that others play but just with those sounds in mind. I have been working on this in isolation for a fair bit...
You see, we've already got away from the strict key centre idea because those altered sounds aren't in C. So you've broken it already.
Have a look at this. Slow it down using the Settings thing if necessary. Forget the piano, look at the lines he's using. It's far from 'key centred'. Well, it is and it isn't, if you see what I mean. It goes outside that. You don't have to play anything as fast as this, of course.
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Look, I've just done this. It's not C Jam Blues but it's the same idea using the usual jazz progression:
C7 - F7 - C7 - %
F7 - F#o - C7 - A7
Dm7 - G7 - C7 - G7
It's all take one. I'm not thinking 'key centre', I'm just putting in notes that go with the chords, knowing it's got to be bluesy. I've put in altered notes over the G7. I don't know what I did, I just used them because I know they're there.
If I did it again it wouldn't be the same. Same idea, not the same thing. In fact, if I did it again, having done that one, I'd probably get more extreme and use altered notes over the A7 too.
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Sorry, couldn't resist, it must be Christmas. This one's more intricate but sounds simpler. There's a lot more C pentatonic blues in it but more subs (like A7 alt). And there's a very straight F mixo run near the end.
Again, I wasn't thinking key centres, I was just running notes against the chords. I really couldn't tell you how it came out except obviously I knew what was happening chord-wise. But it's always different each time and I think that's the main point. If you're stuck in one formula then it'll sound quite samey and the ideas run out pretty quickly.
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In listening to the Autumn Leaves solo (good playing BTW) is there is nothing there resembling AL. It’s a Solo that could go over any similar set of chord changes. So a couple of thoughts on correcting that.
Jimmys point above re working with a vocalist is spot on, as they have to breath to sing. Us guitar players exist in an oxygen depleted universe where playing can and does go on and on and on. With nary a breath. Like Miles said: ‘play the rests’. Phrasing is created by silence.
I believe (and it’s how I was taught) paying attention to the standard underneath your improvisation is important: using the intervals and melodic direction of the standard reinforce in the listener a connection with something they know. This is not trivial, it requires study of the standard. It’s not comfortable like running up and down theoretically correct combinations of arps, modes, scales and such can be. There’s a lot of thinking, trying and planning involved.
Playing with a vocalist I think forces you to not just be wandering around behind them, that would sound pretty awful. It should come across as a question/answer sort of thing, complementing and supporting the vocalist. Check out Ella Fitzgerald and Joe Pass, Tuck and Patty.
and... have fun)
d
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I think one thing you might want to do is just learn some lines you like that are less diatonic with some alterations or notes out of the associated major scale. Then if you can internalize them and think about them with your approach which would probably get you more comfortable using those alterations.
I'm sure you can already do this with things like a b3 or a b5. It's more about getting comfortable with more sounds. YMMV
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Write out the chords in the key and note the accidentals. The feature those notes heavily in your playing.
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But, of course, the blues isn't really key centred anyway. Maybe it's in 'C Blues', whatever that is!
Key centres really apply to tunes that literally drift in and out of various keys, like All The Things You Are, or any other tune that uses different keys. That's a different ball game.
And modal tunes like Blue In Green, are something else again. That's why I'm saying beware of formulas. Formulas seem nice and safe - just play x - but then you're stuck in it and where's the feeling gone?
This is honestly a very serious point.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
So basically through this thread what I'm understanding is I am already using the arp method or chord by chord method but I just think of it a little differently.
Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Originally Posted by jazzkritter
Originally Posted by charlieparker
Imgur: The magic of the Internet
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Originally Posted by ragman1
OTOH you can choose to play a blues super functionally.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
The Mirabella “ Blue siren” Crossfire
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