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Originally Posted by PMB
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11-07-2020 09:33 AM
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I ain't ever got hired for a gig because I play like a horn
Kidding, but not. Somebody hires a guitar player, they want a guitar player, and probably a very specific type of guitar player. Because generally, we are still the dregs.
I like these conversations though. I always learn something new.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Miles went the opposite way but his tone was distinctive too. Miles is interesting in that he played with Bird, was "on the scene" in bebop's heyday and decided to leave it behind for something else. Coltrane, coming later, moved far away from bebop too. I'm not sure what to say about Sonny Rollins in this regard. The Jim Hall of the tenor sax? ;o)
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I think the issue is hearing melody you like, whatever the instrument.
The classic archtop guitar, straight into the amp, is not well suited to imitate a saxophone. But, substitute a guitar with more sustain, process the sound to reduce the pick attack, maybe swell with a volume pedal here and there, add some reverb, and the horn lines can sound good on guitar, depending on the horn player you're imitating.
Then, there are lines that lay easily on guitar and a lot of players employ them. The same is true of horns. I recall bringing an original to a jam and hearing a saxophonist say, "a horn player didn't write this" -- because of jumps in the melody.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
There are advantages to: chords, foremost among them. And partial chords.
And then there's Wes. No horn player can do this.
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video unavailable - I'd love to see it
Wes is all on his own in guitar wonderland (but he's okay he's got his axe)
but he's the only guitarist who I love in the same way I love bird and bud and sonny and bill
and I don't love him as a guitarist - or the others as instrumentalists - it's what they play and the way they play it that counts
as to miles and John and sonny leaving bop behind I'm not convinced it was a good idea
and I don't listen to sonny much past the bridge
I'm a bit conservative when it comes to art - I'm a big fan e.g. of Shakespeare and Jane Austin - but I think there are powerful aspects of the contemporary New York jazz scene that make me feel I'm not alone in this
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I'm exaggerating here of course
I can't imagine bill Evans playing alto - and even bird on tenor is not quite it
and I wouldn't want wes to be playing the same things (or nearly) on a different instrument
but its certainly not just their 'tone' that is relevant - it's what used to be called their 'conception' too
and bird's is it for me (which is not remotely original of course)
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
and I'm not remotely interested insounding like a horn. the issues of phrasing that are under discussion apply to piano just as much as to the horns. it's not instrument-specific. it's about sound only inasmuch as swing and feel are connected to sound.
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Pianists have to learn from horn players. Horn players from piano.
Guitarists get the scraps.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
For me a horn-like tone - warm, vibrant, sustaining (but not too much) and dynamic really helps me to get out of my own way and just let the music speak from my heart.
Keeping the lyrics of the tune in mind doesn't hurt, nor does respecting (but not genuflecting to) the rhythms of the words, as a jumping-off point.
My trademark ballad tone, dubbed "The Sax O'Fender" by a friend, involves a tube amp at edge-of-breakup, gain riding, and an agile pick policy to work; when it does, it's magical, when it doesn't, it's still pretty good, at least for me.
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Haven't seen it discussed all that much in this context.
Some guitarists play in ways which I think could be covered pretty well on piano. Some players I really like strike me that way. They can play fast, even notes, each ringing out clearly/individually and without the sort of expressive devices which are not available on piano.
Other players don't do that. They're more interested in the expressive devices (if that term works). It's about sliding, shaking, pulling, snapping, bending and processing with pedalboards like look like cockpits on a jet.
My view is that players "should" (should is an odd word to apply to music, mea culpa) consider what gear and technique is going to support their self-expression most fully. Perhaps the most productive two or three hours I ever spent in the practice room was when I sat down with a Boss ME70 (which I'd had for years and the ME50 before it) and decided to find the tone I could hear in my head when I soloed. No, I didn't match it, but I got close enough that self-expression improved, at least in my evaluation of my sound.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I have not read the thread thoroughly. For ME it’s never been about trying to sound like a pianist or horn player. That would never really work. For ME it was ALWAYS about getting the sound of the language in my head, so to speak. The language I preferred and what sounded most jazz to me was exemplified by players like Clifford Brown, Herbie, Red Garland, Oscar, Miles, Trane, Rollins, Freddie, Chick, Jarrett, Cedar - those guys. I think my playing of jazz, being improv, originates in my head, so to speak. So that’s where I tried to cultivate the sound of my language. Not by copying, but by listening.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Thread hijack ...
Several times in the last 55 years, I've fallen in love with somebody else's tone - and sometimes couldn't resist the impulse to get the same gear.
Santana -- I bought a Mesa Boogie. That sort of worked.
Mark Knopfler and a friend of mine who gets great tone -- I got a Stratocaster. Sounded nothing like them.
Wes -- love the tone, but I never tried to duplicate it because I find the L5 a little too big.
Jim Hall -- love his sound, but it's not gear -- it's his harmony and touch. That said, I've never had 175 P90 in my hands - unfortunately.
When I searched for my own sound, I was probably most influenced by Santana. I wanted the high notes to be thick, sustained and to scream. But, I didn't want the distortion, so I got the thickness in the high notes by adding the note an octave lower. I also got a Comins GCS-1 and an LJ, both of which facilitate getting that thick high note. I don't think anybody could guess, from hearing me play, what I imagine are my influences.
It's not a typical approach to jazz guitar, but, at some point, I think you have to find the sound that is you -- I found that difficult because I had to give up on sounding like the players I love -- Wes, Jim, Kenny Burrell and others. I didn't do it until I got old enough to think, if I don't find my own sound now, I'll never be able to do it. I suggest to others thinking about it a little sooner than that.
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this is what I mean by irrelevance - the instrument is irrelevant (from the players' perspective at least)
Veronica Swift is making me so happy since I discovered her the day before yesterday
whether instrumentalists are aiming for her fluidity and grace - or she is aiming for their facility - doesn't seem to matter when you hear her.
it's the freedom she embodies that one aims for - and that's freedom from the mechanics of the way you happen to do it - and freedom from an inability to hear what's there
and she can really fly
utterly irresistible - you can hear the smile in everything she singsLast edited by Groyniad; 11-11-2020 at 04:42 AM.
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I often think one of the biggest impediments to guitarists developing their own sound is having money
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Reminds of the Greg Fishman Etudes from a few years ago; also adapted to guitar. A nice little book/CD package
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That IS a Greg Fishman etude.
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I think this issue depends mainly on how we come into this music. If our first love is the guitar, then it seems crazy to study jazz guitar and not focus on guitar players, guitar technique, etc. But if our first love was the music itself, and guitar was essentially the instrument we had at hand, maybe that person would not feel driven to focus on guitar players and issues.
I hope I can learn from all instruments, but my first love and passion unapologetically is the guitar. I don't want to say "Wow he sounds like a horn player." I would like (in my fantasy!) to have people say "Why can't more horn players sound like guitarists!"
So I guess I'll keep listening to and studying guitar players.
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Originally Posted by GTRMan
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and - in particular - phrasing or 'articulation'
and more particularly this whole thing of
a) stressing downbeats ascending - upbeats descending
b) slurring into the chord tones both ascending and descending (saxologic sets this out beautifully)
this is not instrument specific - it's the most natural phrase pattern in jazz at least
(try slurring from 1 to 2 and then from 3 to 4 starting on a downbeat. doesn't work at all. because you're not moving into the chord tones in the right sort of way)
string changing issues and 'position playing' tend to make it much harder to phrase naturally like this on guitar
- if people feel the guitar is being criticised (how could one do that meaningfully?) one could stress that what you could call the 'move-ability' of everything you do on guitar is hugely helpful musically...
because I learned the positions when I started - and everything I've done since has had to be more or less fitted into these positions - I have never been able to sustain this natural slurring-into-chord-tones phrasing, because the positions push me into breaking up the slur-pick patterns in non-musical ways. think of all those diagrams of a major scale set out with dots on strings across the neck. if you think of the way eg. Pete Bernstein or Wes actually play, none of these fingering patterns seem to get a look in. and that's because these guys phrase well - not in a way that has been determined by the 'one finger per fret to stay in position' rule etc. etc.
I shouldn't have said the guitar is irrelevant to learning how to play. Learning is all about engaging with the peculiarities of the instrument and making them work for you musically. It's irrelevant from the point of view of performance or playing because then you're using it as a tool to get to the music. the reason to share Veronica Swift's scatting is to suggest that it obviously doesn't matter one bit to her that she's not playing one of the traditional instruments. She can do all the stuff they're doing without a traditional instrument.
ps - I just spent years on developing fingering patterns and right hand techniques based on picking every note. it's not impossible that the capacities developed doing this might find some sort of musical employment - but as soon as I play a scale up to the ninth and back, phrased as saxologic sets out in his video it's obvious to me that my fingerings all have to be modified to allow me to slur in essentially this sort of way.
the good news is that it seems to make everything way easier as well as way more musically satisfying.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I've played both saxophone and guitar for many decades. They are completely and utterly different. I think you should embrace the capability and limitations of each when you play.
Last edited by Spook410; 11-15-2020 at 01:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by GTRMan
you need different fingering patterns ascending and descending to keep the natural slur-pattern going
if you play through e.g. Chad's enclosure exercises without this slur-pattern in mind it doesn't really work - but if you use this slur pattern it really works
you could quite easily pick this up on a horn without focusing on any of it - on the guitar you have to work hard with your fingerings to make it possible
I knew people would be negative about this - but read over the thread and stop being so defensive about the guitar people!
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players