There Will Never Be Another You - Improvisational Elaboration

[lawson-stone]

time isn't almost anything--it is everything. You can play all the right notes, but if they don't sit right in the time--they don't mean salt.

You can play all the wrong notes, but know exactly where they fit in the pulse--and all of a sudden, you're hip as shite.

Right now, I am trying to wring out the last bit of jankiness from my 8th note lines--and it's soo hard!

I have to get better at my colorful colloquialisms--that honey one was cake...er... I think it's time to pull out the tomes of Southern Gothic--oh wait, the libraries are dying... shame, shame.

See, I could be posting a sample of my playing right now--but this time feel thing is getting my goat...er... oh, forget it.

I'll try to post tomorrow, at least acoustic like Jeffy B did (though, mine won't be as good)

In the meanwhile, check out what I posted on the Ear Training Journal--it's really funny and it's quite interesting--I got on my favorite Youtube Show "You'll Hear It"

You had me at "southern gothic."

Now I'll spend the day reading favorite passage from Flannery O'Connor or Walker Percy and trying to figure out how it's jazz...

[lawson-stone]

If you even think the term "secondary dominant" while playing this tune, you are naked by the beehive, covered in honey.

Holy Metaphor BopMan!

I swear to God, hand on the Charlie Parker Omnibook, I will never think "secondary dominant" while playing this tune... oh damn I just did it... RUNNING FROM BEES BUT SLIPPING ON THE HONEY...

[Jonah]

maybe just trust your inner ear... no conceptions, no ideas, no tools... just voice wherever it leads.

[joe2758]

I already replied, but...

I am primarily a chord melody guy as well, and here's what I did to help my single note melody playing.

I make a playlist of about 20-30 takes of the tune by my favorite artists on spotify and listen to it every day for a month (not the whole thing every day obviously).

I play the melody without any reference to shapes scales etc...like you would do if you're transcribing or playing Happy Birthday....just sort of pecking around for the notes. This takes multiple tries.

I keep playing it until little things come into my ear, usually from all the listening. I start adding little things I hear by pecking around (if I miss I try the next time around.)

If I invent anything original it is subconscious. It's a long process with lots of boredom while you just play through the melody over and over and wait to see what comes.

I can't solo like this yet, I still use shapes and theory etc

[christianm77]

Keep going! There's a lot that's really good about this. I can't think of better advice for you than keep doing it.

[Irez87]

Hey Lawson-stone

A good jazz man is hard to find

[christianm77]

So here's a clip on this. I realized right at the start that I had the tempo too slow. I stumbled a little right out of the gate. My goals here were (a) to play the melody single-note, as simply as I could, with some ornamentation or fills, then (b) to use melodic fragments combined with chord tones to create something.

The result I think would be much more interesting at a faster clip. I set it slow so as not to make mistakes, but alas. Some really good clams in here, but I think you'll get the concept, especially in the second chorus.

Just re-did the wiring harness in my L5ces and really liking the results!

Yeah I think you are onto something with this.

[lawson-stone]

Keep going! There's a lot that's really good about this. I can't think of better advice for you than keep doing it.

Hey thank you for that encouragement. Part of me just thinks this sucks so bad I might do the world a favor by just quitting. But then I also know this has given me TONS (TONNES?) more respect for even fairly good improvisers. It's way, way, harder than we imagine to play spontaneously, even with a giant jazz vocabulary. I probably could crank out 75 or 100 okay jazz phrases, but using them coherently on the fly on a tune while listening to band-mates and meshing with them... that requires some serious skill and talent. So that alone has made it a good journey.

And I won't quit simply because I'd rather play bad jazz than good pop.

[grahambop]

Lawson, there is only one way to get better, and that is never give up, ever! I think your solos sound quite good, the main thing that would take them to the next level is to tighten up the time and get those phrases into a good groove. I know from experience that doing that is really hard. But it is possible if you keep thinking about time and trying to feel it ‘in your guts’ when you play.

For jazz I really think the note choices are far less important than good time and groove.

Also I think there is nothing wrong with using ‘pre-prepared’ phrases. A lot of my playing probably consists of that really, it’s just that there is just enough fresh stuff or connecting ideas going on so that overall it comes out sounding more spontaneous.

I dug your Jimmy Raney quote by the way, it’s from one of the Aebersold tracks isn’t it?

[christianm77]

Yeah most people just regurgitate licks TBH... It's hard to really improvise.

[grahambop]

And another thing - being so self-critical is a good sign. You have no idea how much I dislike my own recordings at first! After a while I think they’re maybe not too bad, but I still find loads of things I felt I could have done better.

I suspect a lot of the great players have this attitude and it drives them to improve.

[Jonah]

it's interesting.. all my life I struggled to apply anything I learn suring practice in real improviztion -- it is always a problem for me... once I begin to play music I forget everything.. and when I try to insert a lick or phrase it ruins all

I always thought of it as of a lack of discipline in study...

[mr. beaumont]

Lawson...

Have you ever tried the exact opposite of what you're going for? Literally writing a new melody to the tune, and improvising off of that?

Might be worth a shot. It's yet another trick to spark creativity.

[christianm77]

it's interesting.. all my life I struggled to apply anything I learn suring practice in real improviztion -- it is always a problem for me... once I begin to play music I forget everything.. and when I try to insert a lick or phrase it ruins all

I always thought of it as of a lack of discipline in study...

No I think that's how everyone feels.

Practice doesn't manifest itself in improvise performance for a few months.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson, there is only one way to get better, and that is never give up, ever! I think your solos sound quite good, the main thing that would take them to the next level is to tighten up the time and get those phrases into a good groove. I know from experience that doing that is really hard. But it is possible if you keep thinking about time and trying to feel it ‘in your guts’ when you play.

For jazz I really think the note choices are far less important than good time and groove.

Also I think there is nothing wrong with using ‘pre-prepared’ phrases. A lot of my playing probably consists of that really, it’s just that there is just enough fresh stuff or connecting ideas going on so that overall it comes out sounding more spontaneous.

I dug your Jimmy Raney quote by the way, it’s from one of the Aebersold tracks isn’t it?

Thanks for the encouragement and advice.

And yes, the first phrase of the 3rd chorus is the opening phase in the Raney/Aebersold "Bout You and Me." I had to shift the placement a bit to make it fit. I really want to start incorporating those Raney phrases more into my playing, but his whole groove and concept is so advanced it's hard to abstract licks out of it. I'm hoping that playing those solos a lot will wear the ideas into my head somehow.

I have no problem with the idea of using phrases and licks we learned in advance--that's the only kind I have! It's still quite a job though to be able to use them fluidly, like learning a new word or phrase in another language.

[lawson-stone]

Lawson...

Have you ever tried the exact opposite of what you're going for? Literally writing a new melody to the tune, and improvising off of that?

Might be worth a shot. It's yet another trick to spark creativity.

Both yes and no I guess. All three of those choruses were literally "composed" but I did so by starting with phrases from the melody, then selecting phrases and transitions based on the changes. They're pretty fixed in my mind at the moment.

But the idea of writing a real "contrafact" no, I haven't tried that. Might be a fun idea.

[ragman1]

I have no problem with the idea of using phrases and licks we learned in advance--that's the only kind I have!

Ah! That's definitely one problem right there.

Some people are chord people, others are solo/improviser people. You're a chord person judging by your vids; it comes much easier to you than notes. Consequently you lack a head start, and consequently want to copy so you've got something to play.

You might think that would give you confidence but I doubt it (you don't have to accept this!). If you do that then really you're simply playing by rote. There's no real creativity involved, it's just imitation. Therefore in all likelihood your solos are going to sound rehearsed and rather mechanical. Which you probably feel, therefore no real confidence in your own abilities.

You don't need prearranged licks, you need an overview of the notes/sounds/scales/arpeggios you need at a given point. Then, assuming you know where to find them on the neck, you can improvise on the fly and hence more creatively. It may not be brilliant etc but at least it's yours! And it'll be different every time.

Finding them on the neck comes the more you do it. It may be harder at first but it comes. Hope this is helpful.

It also involves the ability to analyse/scan a piece to find the right note choices you need. In advance, that is, and then remembered. That also comes the more you do it. But it does require taking a leap into the unknown somewhat. But it comes.

Another advantage of this is that, if you do it a lot and then get lost somewhere in the tune, very often the fingers will simply find their own way, simply through having done it before. The effects are cumulative.

It would be wonderful if we were all note and chord players but I guess everyone has their strong and weak points. With me it's the chord melody stuff, I'm not so hot at it :-)

[lawson-stone]

Ah! That's definitely one problem right there.

Some people are chord people, others are solo/improviser people. You're a chord person judging by your vids; it comes much easier to you than notes. Consequently you lack a head start, and consequently want to copy so you've got something to play.

You might think that would give you confidence but I doubt it (you don't have to accept this!). If you do that then really you're simply playing by rote. There's no real creativity involved, it's just imitation. Therefore in all likelihood your solos are going to sound rehearsed and rather mechanical. Which you probably feel, therefore no real confidence in your own abilities.

You don't need prearranged licks, you need an overview of the notes/sounds/scales/arpeggios you need at a given point. Then, assuming you know where to find them on the neck, you can improvise on the fly and hence more creatively. It may not be brilliant etc but at least it's yours! And it'll be different every time.

Finding them on the neck comes the more you do it. It may be harder at first but it comes. Hope this is helpful.

It also involves the ability to analyse/scan a piece to find the right note choices you need. In advance, that is, and then remembered. That also comes the more you do it. But it does require taking a leap into the unknown somewhat. But it comes.

Another advantage of this is that, if you do it a lot and then get lost somewhere in the tune, very often the fingers will simply find their own way, simply through having done it before. The effects are cumulative.

It would be wonderful if we were all note and chord players but I guess everyone has their strong and weak points. With me it's the chord melody stuff, I'm not so hot at it :-)

You're right I'm definitely more of a chord player. These solos are a kind of attempt to learn my arpeggios and such, but to learn them in a context. So yes, they're mechanical, but as I result I have a much better sense of where the notes lay than I did before. I tried forever to learn arpeggios just as fingering patterns, out of context, and it was frustrating and generally fruitless unless I got asked to rip a bunch of arpeggios.

So this was more of an exercise in working with the melody for some fragments of ideas, and using chord-tones/arpeggios for my phrases, linked by however I could do so, usually chromatically. Most of my "licks" were learned to get an arpeggio under my fingers.

I do hope I learn to improvise melodically beyond just being forced and mechanical. The chords felt that way too, many years ago. The first time I played a 13th chord I grimaced and asked "WTH was that?" Then 13#11 and all those... just felt and sounded awful. Now they seem to flow. I am hoping the melodic side of things will happen that way too.

[christianm77]

You're right I'm definitely more of a chord player. These solos are a kind of attempt to learn my arpeggios and such, but to learn them in a context. So yes, they're mechanical, but as I result I have a much better sense of where the notes lay than I did before. I tried forever to learn arpeggios just as fingering patterns, out of context, and it was frustrating and generally fruitless unless I got asked to rip a bunch of arpeggios.

So this was more of an exercise in working with the melody for some fragments of ideas, and using chord-tones/arpeggios for my phrases, linked by however I could do so, usually chromatically. Most of my "licks" were learned to get an arpeggio under my fingers.

I do hope I learn to improvise melodically beyond just being forced and mechanical. The chords felt that way too, many years ago. The first time I played a 13th chord I grimaced and asked "WTH was that?" Then 13#11 and all those... just felt and sounded awful. Now they seem to flow. I am hoping the melodic side of things will happen that way too.

I would say a great starting point for that is to learn lots of melodies, preferably by ear, but if you practice them in different keys that should help too.

[KirkP]

Hey on that scat-singing. You know, I can hear a scat of TWNBAY in my head all day long, hum it in the shower, but somehow the notes all flatten out and i can't actually define the pitches. If you recorded it, it would just sound like "dum dee dum-dum, doo-dum..." but no altered tones, etc. Do you actually scat sing those notes at the correct pitches? Can you (in theory) transcribe your scat singing and make a guitar solo out of it? I've tried, but other than a general rhythmic shape, I don't get very far.

I wish I’d noticed this thread earlier, but I’m on board now. It’s a great topic.

I think my introduction to improvising was similar to the singing in the shower method you’re discussing. Or I might have been taking a hike or driving with a melody stuck in my head and tried to make variations to it on each cycle, perhaps while whistling or humming (best reserved for solitary hikes!).

I’ve often experienced what you mention: having the illusion of hearing the notes, yet when trying to hum them the notes seem to evaporate. I think that means what you really have is a good rhythm. But there are always notes that will work with that rhythm, so stick with it and try to find them. Sometimes just singing a chromatic line to that rhythm ending on a chord or melody note will do the job. Keep at it.

Tying improvisation to the melody is what comes most naturally to me. At the most basic level it can be adding ornamentation to the melody. But you can improvise a harmony part to the original melody or mess around with phrasing.

Try taking a short phrase from the original melody and repeat that rhythm as a motif, changing the notes as the chords change. For example, start an improvisation of Another You by playing the first measure or two of the melody, then keep that motif going for a few more bars. Then grab another motif from the melody and do it again. Using fragments of the original melody in your solo helps keep the listener connected, and I think creates a sense that you’ve got something to say and aren’t just noodling over the changes. If my description doesn’t make sense, I may try to record a short example.

[Irez87]

I dunno if it's really an either or dichotomy with playing music: either chords or solos--they are tied together.

That's why I'm frustrated with my comping as well, Lawson-Stone, it doesn't match the fluidity (well...it could always be better--8th NOTE, 8th NOTE, 8th NOTE Feel) of my improvised lines.

You know what no one's tried since the dawn of this music, simultaneous improvisation. I think I'll reach out to the guys over at You'll Hear It again about the idea of people taking solos that weave in between each other like Louis Armstrong used to do with his bands.

Or maybe it's more of a call and response type thing. It all has to come back to sound. Lawson-stone, if you can get friendly with a great player in your area and play (even informal duets) with that person--THAT will help your improvisational skills way more than digging deep into the theory books.

I continue to grow as a player because I try to surround myself with phenomenal players--whether at jam sessions, making friends, or paying them for lessons (I spend a lot of my money on lessons with people who I admire--if I spent that money on buying a guitar, I'd probably have a nice Bennedetto by now--but I think the lessons served me, at least, better)

[christianm77]

I dunno if it's really an either or dichotomy with playing music: either chords or solos--they are tied together.

That's why I'm frustrated with my comping as well, Lawson-Stone, it doesn't match the fluidity (well...it could always be better--8th NOTE, 8th NOTE, 8th NOTE Feel) of my improvised lines.

You know what no one's tried since the dawn of this music, simultaneous improvisation. I think I'll reach out to the guys over at You'll Hear It again about the idea of people taking solos that weave in between each other like Louis Armstrong used to do with his bands.

Mulligan and Baker?

This is a texture I've used a lot and I've other players use it too....

[Irez87]

YES!

And don't forget the OP's favorite guitarist--Jimmy Raney.

Raney did it with Bob Brookmyer

He's the one that inspired me to that type of thing at jam sessions--yeah I know, it's hard to do at jams, but if you say "for my solo, let's do a duet--me and you, trombony!" No one is gonna argue. After all, it's my solo space, if I wanna use it as an opportunity to do that sorta stuff--it's my funereal. Sometimes it works gloriously, other times it's a train wreck. But I always walk away learning something new.

If another horn show's up at tonight's session (cross my fingers), I'll do it and (if everyone is okay with it) record it. We'll see. Anyway, it's ALWAYS fun to do this type of improvisation. Nothing gets you out of your own habits like trying to solo WITH someone else.

[ragman1]

I do hope I learn to improvise melodically beyond just being forced and mechanical.

Sure. The only way is to do it and keep doing it, taking that leap into the unknown.

It's only really scary the first few times :-)

The main secret's in the preparation

[lawson-stone]

Lawson-Stone,

When I looked up the tune in the Real Book I thought, "C'mon--you ridiculous theory geeks--why did you write those changes that way?"

Franky V is well respected round these parts, he simplifies the tune here:

The secondary dominant motion is nice--but if it complicates your improvised line, shoot for the simplest answer. Many of us (myself included) get so enamored by the theory--figuring out the hippest subs (not an Italian BMT, for sure) and all--that we forget about the most important part--melodic development. If you can sound more melodic on the bare bones changes, there's no shame in that. I'd rather play bare bone changes and tell a story with them than get caught up in sub'ing in Coltrane Changes and sounding like a hot mess and nothing less.

I think Frank Vignola plays those changes as constant structure descending dominants--if we're talking about the same part of the tune (if not, I apologize). The descending dominants are easier to play when comping, and they are actually easier to solo over.

I will try and put something up tomorrow on this tune. I've been playing it in the jam that I frequent every week--because the trumpet player loves to call it--and the more I play it, the more I like it. After Saturday, I won't be able to play it on guitar (more work to be done on my archie--it never ends) but I could post more ideas on piano if you all don't mind.

Lawson-stone, did you start your solo by quoting "Them There Eyes"? If so, sly quote my friend!

This is a nice clip. I was encouraged because most of what he said I had come up with in my own groping around. That rising note line he talks about is the basis for my second chorus opening... though his is really hip and mine, well.... I also was delighted with his chord-solo which was not that far beyond what I had figured out. Again, what I see there was the feel, the groove, which I have a lot of work to do on.