There Will Never Be Another You - Improvisational Elaboration

[lawson-stone]

My 2nd take. I sped it up a little from the "balladish" tempo to 120bpm as I felt a little more confident. My first was simply after learning the melody and noticing it centered around Eb. This time I took time to learn the chords and try to follow them a little closer. Still not overly happy with it, but I did feel like I improved a little, however slightly. Certainly open to ideas and criticism.

Oh and btw- I listened to everyone else's...I do remember the OP saying "no pro's"! (but seriously, I need to go back and listen again and try to glean a little).

thanks for posting. You make use of the notes and phrasing of the melody but do some really fun stuff with it. I am stuck right now with a handful of ideas and trying to bust out. This was helpful to me.

[PMB]

Thank you Lawson and hohoho for the compliments. Yes, it's very cool, Lawson, that you and I and some of the others like Jack Zucker, Paul Kirk, and Paul Sanwald are still onboard, twenty-plus years later.

Here's another take on TWNBAY. Basically this has kind of consumed my week, getting back into recording my blowing and critiquing it. I don't really have anything new to discuss as I wasn't trying as hard to "play off the melody" this time, although some of it occurs. BIAB backing this time, bossa nova feel at 185. BTW, isn't it time we thought about retiring the term "bossa nova" (new thing) since The Girl From Ipanema came out in 1963?

http://claymoore.com/anotheryoupollwinners7.wav

Bossa Ova, Bossa Neva? Either way, a nice rendition, Clay.

[Bahnzo]

I am stuck right now with a handful of ideas and trying to bust out.

I am as well. It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly and I retreat to my sing-song playing that I'm never happy with.

[Bahnzo]

Here's another take on TWNBAY.

I think this is a great example of what the OP was talking about. Taking the melody and starting with a little embellishment and over each chorus taking it further and further. Very nice, had some parts that reminded me of Herb Ellis in there.

[lawson-stone]

I am as well. It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly and I retreat to my sing-song playing that I'm never happy with.

For what it's worth, I think you have some nice ideas in your clip, more good ones that otherwise. I am realizing I need to master more jazz vocabulary. I know a lot of theory, but somehow I don't get the jazz phrasing. Mine (to me) sounds very "white bread." I've been learning a lot of bop solos and such, but so far haven't been able to transfer much to my other playing. I can play the heck out of the solos I've learned, though!

[Bahnzo]

The concept here was to take the opening melodic phrase and ride it up through the Dm7b5-G7, then try to permute it through each chord change moving to the nearest chord-tone to preserve the movement. For the second 16 bars I thought about inverting the melodic phrase making the general movement downward.

This began as a drill where I played the melody and on each melody note I'd stop and see if I could play the arpeggio of the related chord. That turned out to be a fun exercise because it moved me away from starting on the root.

I tried this a little tonight...didn't have alot of time, but I like the ideas. The other thing I worked briefly on was playing the melody one way (ie, up) and then the next line down. A simple idea, but a decent way to get a little mileage out of a line.

For what it's worth, I think you have some nice ideas in your clip, more good ones that otherwise. I am realizing I need to master more jazz vocabulary. I know a lot of theory, but somehow I don't get the jazz phrasing. Mine (to me) sounds very "white bread." I've been learning a lot of bop solos and such, but so far haven't been able to transfer much to my other playing. I can play the heck out of the solos I've learned, though!

I can play the heck out of the solo's I learned too! I can hear that you do know theory, and what you play on the video on the top of page 2 here I liked. But your phrasing is a little "stilted" maybe. Someone else said it also...if you were to smooth that out so it flows better, it would sound much improved. I also liked the little chromatic thing down the neck at the end. There's a video by Frank Vignola on YT (you can google it I do suspect) for this tune which I thought was interesting, and he mentions how the song has a nice chromatic line to it if you can hear it.

[pauln]

Surprised no one has mentioned the "half-note melody", one the the simplest and most immediately effective ways to let the melody be your guide.

It deconstructs the melody line into just two notes per bar. This is capturing the two notes of the melody within that bar that most express the direction, movement, and feel. This is actually easy to hear because they are the natural main notes of the phrasing.



Here it looks like the half-note melody for the first line might be Bb | D F | G Bb | F F | F F which might look a little simple, but it's the frame to which the syncopation, interpretation, side-slips, slurs, enclosures, ornaments, and other improvisation vocabulary make reference.

Try going through a section of the melody and converting it to half-note melody (you'll find it is easy to do).
Sing or play the half-note melody with the song and notice how many good ideas pop up wanting to be heard.
Listen to recorded solos and see if you can notice the half-note melody frame within the soloing.

[ragman1]

I think one can over-analyse things. Best thing to do is just play it.

It seems as I play around, I have some ideas that I think might sound good. But when it comes time to play them, they either don't sound good, or I can't get them to come out properly

That's one of the dangers of playing. It's a sort of play-by-rote variation, trying to make the actual performance conform to a preconceived idea. It rarely works.

One way to get out the rut is to vary the style. Here's a clip. I'm not sure what the style is exactly, perhaps a bit acoustic, but it's not the same as before. There are more phrases as opposed to long lines and I think the only altered notes are over dominants. It's NOT an embellishment of the melody. Fed up with that now!

The tune's faded in and out to spare us interminable repetition.

[Bahnzo]

Surprised no one has mentioned the "half-note melody", one the the simplest and most immediately effective ways to let the melody be your guide.

While not specifically mentioned, Tal_175's link to a video (on page one) talks about it during the video. I skimmed it, and it seems to basically break down the melody to the half notes, and then using chromatics and guide tones to fill in the "gaps". I'll have to go back and watch it more, but it's a little wordy, has people singing notes (it's a music class I gather), etc. One of those videos that's like 1 min actual content for every 5 mins video.

[grahambop]

Here's my go at using the melody. As I said before I don't have any 'system', I just try to retain some patterns or references to it and see what happens!

[lawson-stone]

Here's my go at using the melody. As I said before I don't have any 'system', I just try to retain some patterns or references to it and see what happens!

That's wonderful! Your tone is just why God made ES175's. The fluency with bop ideas, your pushing the boundaries of the choruses so they blend, which reminds me of Jimmy Raney, it's all great to listen to.

thanks for posting that. It has inspired me!

[grahambop]

Thanks very much Lawson! Actually it was good to do this ‘melody’ approach, so thanks for the thread, I think it made me play some different ideas than usual. Definitely something to keep working on.

Incidentally this is the first time I’ve recorded with the DV Mark Little Jazz, I’m very happy with the results.

Funny you should mention Jimmy Raney, right after doing this I wondered if he’d recorded this tune, and I found his version from the early 50s in my CD collection. Now that really is a wonderful solo, I think I’ll transcribe it!

[grahambop]

This is the Jimmy Raney version, listening to it again I can hear quite a few echoes of the melody in his solo.

[Irez87]

Like I said before, we should do this for every standard of the month. There's so many possibilities to using a melody and at the end of the day, you will sound like you are playing a standard and not just a slew of changes. Every pro player that I've studied with has said, "learn the dang dong melody!"

Look at what you started Lawson-Stone!

I just got to Washington state, but the movers aren't here yet (I packed my amp and drove up my gitter)

Once I get my amp and internet (at a hotel at the moment) I'll try my hand at it--all these posts are ridiculously good.

Graham, I got both collections of Raney Visits Paris a year ago--I have to listen to that cut of "Another You" again! Really good!

Here, here to an awesome thread!

[ragman1]

We are awesome, so true, so true

[grahambop]

I like this Peter Bernstein video, he gets into the rationale for using the melody and gives some specific examples (the tune is Nobody Else But Me).

[Bahnzo]

Since this thread kicked off me learning this song: this is my effort after all this time later. Had more fun than I thought I would and learned to really appreciate the tune.

[lawson-stone]

Thank you Lawson and hohoho for the compliments. Yes, it's very cool, Lawson, that you and I and some of the others like Jack Zucker, Paul Kirk, and Paul Sanwald are still onboard, twenty-plus years later.

Here's another take on TWNBAY. Basically this has kind of consumed my week, getting back into recording my blowing and critiquing it. I don't really have anything new to discuss as I wasn't trying as hard to "play off the melody" this time, although some of it occurs. BIAB backing this time, bossa nova feel at 185. BTW, isn't it time we thought about retiring the term "bossa nova" (new thing) since The Girl From Ipanema came out in 1963?

http://claymoore.com/anotheryoupollwinners7.wav

I got to this late but wow, what a fun take. You seem to have such a vast collection of musical ideas and the technique to express them. This is really inspiring!

[lawson-stone]

Since this thread kicked off me learning this song: this is my effort after all this time later. Had more fun than I thought I would and learned to really appreciate the tune.

This is nice. You have the whole tune put together and ready to perform. Gig-worthy stuff. I'm so glad you decided to invest in this thread!

I hope to get things a bit more together and put up something this week.

[rpjazzguitar]

Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.

[lawson-stone]

Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.

I wasn't saying not to listen to the masters. I was asking us to focus on our own playing. I see threads where someone wants to play something, and gets bombed with YouTube links. I can find those for myself, as most of us can. I want to hear what we are doing here, what ideas we have, what lines we can think of. Sure, we should listen to the great ones, and I do, all day long as i sit at my desk. But for the purposes of the thread, I just asked us to focus on playing, not scouring YouTube for links to videos, which I think can be a distraction from actually PLAYING.

Thanks also for fruitful observations on the tune and your ideas!

[lawson-stone]

Not a direct response to the OP, but some thoughts related to the subject.

As far as listening to the Masters, I think it depends on who. Charlie Parker played a lot of notes, very fast. You may not be ready for that. But, Paul Desmond, Hank Mobley, Chet Baker, why not them?

There's no one way to play jazz. I have been energetically criticized at a jam by a guy who couldn't stand any interpretation of the melody. His idea was that it was disrespectful to the composer. Most people aren't that rigid about it. I have a composer's chart for a tune and the composer's recording -- and he didn't play what he wrote!

For a standard, I like to learn the melody by singing the lyric. But, I can remember a good melody without a lyric too. The lyric can help you get into the composer's mood, but there's no law that says you have to play the tune in that mood.

If you invent a time machine and go to 52nd street in 1946 and get to sit in with Bird and Diz, and they call Donna Lee, they probably don't want to hear your solo be the melody to Back Home in Indiana with a little bit of embellishment. But, back in modern times at a restaurant gig, the audience might appreciate it being able to recognize the tune. OTOH, if your band is good enough to be creating great new music to the chord changes of a tune, the audience will probably be happy.

I believe an important skill is to be able to play any melody you know, starting on any random note -- meaning play it in any key, starting anywhere on the neck with any finger. That's one of the two fundamental skills in jazz -- the ability to play a melody that's in your head. The other is to be able to think of a good melody.

And speaking of that, if you can't scat sing an elaboration of a melody, the thing to work on has nothing to do with guitar technique.

And, if you can scat sing an elaboration of a melody then all you need to do is figure out how to play it.

As far as elaborating a melody, I can do it, and often resort to it when I can't remember the melody correctly. But, I have no recollection of ever working on it and no recollection of learning how to do it.

In Another You, there are a lot of notes in bars 1 and 2, but, in bars 3 and 4, there isn't much. Start by filling in the empty bars with a cool sounding line.

Hey on that scat-singing. You know, I can hear a scat of TWNBAY in my head all day long, hum it in the shower, but somehow the notes all flatten out and i can't actually define the pitches. If you recorded it, it would just sound like "dum dee dum-dum, doo-dum..." but no altered tones, etc. Do you actually scat sing those notes at the correct pitches? Can you (in theory) transcribe your scat singing and make a guitar solo out of it? I've tried, but other than a general rhythmic shape, I don't get very far.

If you are so inclined, could you take to us/me about that? that whole "sing what you play" thing is right up there with "start with the melody" in the lore of improvising, and I think I need to pay more attention to that.

[ragman1]

Hey Bahnzo, that's some improvement! A million miles away from when you first started :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

Ok. Here's my take an Another You. I made a point of trying to keep hinting at the melody through most of it.

[rpjazzguitar]

Hey on that scat-singing. You know, I can hear a scat of TWNBAY in my head all day long, hum it in the shower, but somehow the notes all flatten out and i can't actually define the pitches. If you recorded it, it would just sound like "dum dee dum-dum, doo-dum..." but no altered tones, etc. Do you actually scat sing those notes at the correct pitches? Can you (in theory) transcribe your scat singing and make a guitar solo out of it? I've tried, but other than a general rhythmic shape, I don't get very far.

If you are so inclined, could you take to us/me about that? that whole "sing what you play" thing is right up there with "start with the melody" in the lore of improvising, and I think I need to pay more attention to that.

I think I know what you mean. That, somehow, you can scat something and then not really be clear on what you just sang.

I think this gets better with practice. You sing a short phrase. Just a few notes. Then repeat it a few times. Then try to find the notes on the guitar. If it's too difficult, slow down, cut it to even fewer notes and try again. It may help to sing the phrase an octave higher. For me, that makes it easier to recognize the note.

Like everything else in jazz, no matter what you do, there's a player whose playing you love who did it a different way. In fact, if you like two players, they probably did it differently from each other.

I like singable lines. I often like players who play a lot of notes, but I don't tend to go back and listen again. My favorites are Jim Hall and Wes. Not that they didn't sometimes play fast, but I don't think of them as speed demons like, say, Benson. (Is he still considered a speed demon? I heard him live years ago and I thought his chops were amazing).

When I play what I'm singing internally, invariably, the result is better. At the moment I lose focus on the singing and think about a bit of theory ("Ok! Melodic minor a b3 up on the next m7b5"), that's exactly when the solo heads south.