Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 8, 9 & 10

[fep]

Chapter 8 - Introducing the Melodic Minor Scale
Chapter 9 - Adding Altered Tones
Chapter 10 - Referencing and Worksheets

I'm combining these chapters because the only 'guitar work' for all three chapters is learning the melodic minor scale with five patterns (actually we don't have to learn all five yet). The rest of the material is concepts and ideas.

The concept and ideas won't take much time to understand, let's discuss them.

Learning the scales patterns may take some work depending on how familiar you are with them already.

Meanwhile, review and feel free to post to the prior threads.

[fep]

I'll read the chapters again but I think the only guitar exercises we need to do is learn the melodic minor scale in all 5 patterns.

This is a start. I purposely didn't choose the key of C and G as they are the easiest keys for me. This is in Bb. I need to get this in all 12 keys with a metronome.

[jazzuki]

Well I'm afraid that I just cant keep up with pace of these threads-I dont have the time to cover the lessons at this pace but can understand why you all pressing on.However for me its a journey and not a race so I will have to plod on at my own.But will keep watching.

[fep]

Well I'm afraid that I just cant keep up with pace of these threads-I dont have the time to cover the lessons at this pace but can understand why you all pressing on.However for me its a journey and not a race so I will have to plod on at my own.But will keep watching.

Hi Jazzuki,

Any pace will work I think. I still plan to post to the earlier threads myself. And, I'll continue to practice the earlier exercises. And, I'll continue to read/listen to other people posting.

But opening this new threads, give those that want to move along somewhere to post too.

[Frank67]

I am also not quite ready to move on. I have practiced the substitutions but not to the point where i am happy with my progress. Work was too busy lately. So i plan to spend at least another week or so on the substitutions for them to sink in better before moving to melodic minor (which i am not familiar with).

Hope to keep up!

Have a great time practicing!
Frank

[AlsoRan]

Fep, I am keeping my promise and checking in. I have already been rewarded.

So much of what our honorable forum members have written about soloing is captured in this book. And I can really appreciate the layout of it.

I would not have needed to create the thread on altered chords and scales had I read this book.

To be honest, the book's text reminds me of a lot of ideas that I have read and forgotten through the years, and it also explained some soloing ideas I have learned (and forgotten, in many cases, from lack of use).

For instance, in the book "Jazz Improvization" (one of many with that title), it is written that one can solo over a functioning Dom 7 chord by using either the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales with the root note 1/2 step up OR down from the root of the Dom 7th chord being soloed over.

This book gives more information on this concept and explains why I can use the Melodic Minor scale 1/2 step above. The reason is basically because I am using the same notes as the Altered scale that has its root 1/2 step below the root of the Melodic Minor scale I am utilizing that is 1/2 step up.

To put it more clearly, if I have a G7 that is resolving to a I chord, I could either use the G altered scale or the A flat Melodic Minor (A flat is 1/2 step above the G) since they use the same notes. Using these scales gives you b5, #5, b9, and #9 to create tension.

What I really liked was that the book cautions that "the person comping for you needs to play alterations in their chord voicing or avoid the 5th and extensions all together. If a comping musician plays a major 9th extension, perfect 5th, or major 13th extension on a functioning dominant, they have essentially restricted the soloist from playing alterations..."

It also goes on to discuss how in Jazz, they are often many "collisions" between altered and unaltered extensions, and how tempo can affect how much this is noticed by the listener.

This addressed a concern I had that I could not quite put into words on another thread (silly me).

Thanks for the invitation fep.

My Jazz instruction with a real live person starts in a week, and he wants me to work on Dorian. Still, I will promote this book to a higher position on my list of priorities and use it in the background. I'll also follow the thread as best I can.

There are a lot of threads on the forum that catch my interest and can distract me from the ones I really need to follow.

Take care, All.

[fep]

Fep, I am keeping my promise and checking in. I have already been rewarded.

So much of what our honorable forum members have written about soloing is captured in this book. And I can really appreciate the layout of it.

I would not have needed to create the thread on altered chords and scales had I read this book.

To be honest, the book's text reminds me of a lot of ideas that I have read and forgotten through the years, and it also explained some soloing ideas I have learned (and forgotten, in many cases, from lack of use).

For instance, in the book "Jazz Improvization" (one of many with that title), it is written that one can solo over a functioning Dom 7 chord by using either the Melodic or Harmonic Minor scales with the root note 1/2 step up OR down from the root of the Dom 7th chord being soloed over.

This book gives more information on this concept and explains why I can use the Melodic Minor scale 1/2 step above. The reason is basically because I am using the same notes as the Altered scale that has its root 1/2 step below the root of the Melodic Minor scale I am utilizing that is 1/2 step up.

To put it more clearly, if I have a G7 that is resolving to a I chord, I could either use the G altered scale or the A flat Melodic Minor (A flat is 1/2 step above the G) since they use the same notes. Using these scales gives you b5, #5, b9, and #9 to create tension.

What I really liked was that the book cautions that "the person comping for you needs to play alterations in their chord voicing or avoid the 5th and extensions all together. If a comping musician plays a major 9th extension, perfect 5th, or major 13th extension on a functioning dominant, they have essentially restricted the soloist from playing alterations..."

It also goes on to discuss how in Jazz, they are often many "collisions" between altered and unaltered extensions, and how tempo can affect how much this is noticed by the listener.

This addressed a concern I had that I could not quite put into words on another thread (silly me).

Thanks for the invitation fep.

My Jazz instruction with a real live person starts in a week, and he wants me to work on Dorian. Still, I will promote this book to a higher position on my list of priorities and use it in the background. I'll also follow the thread as best I can.

There are a lot of threads on the forum that catch my interest and can distract me from the ones I really need to follow.

Take care, All.

Hey Alsoran,

I like that this book seems to be very practical. It's so easy for me to read through theory, understand it, and move on. The problem is I don't take the time to make the ideas 'second nature' and get the ideas into my playing.

This book moves you through the core material that I think one should start with for jazz soloing, and has an emphasis on exercises. Like, I said, very practical.

And then the recording that many of us are doing holds us accountable and for me assures that I get to a certain level of competency. Did I say, very practical?

Regarding your comping comments and collisions. I did a little experiment a while back, I don't know if you saw it. Notated and recorded, top line is what the 'soloist' is thinking, bottom line is the comping:



Scratch - demos 2.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

You can draw your own conclusions.

Cool that you're taking some lessons. Melodic Minor is just Dorian with a raised 7.

[AlsoRan]

I am still amazed at the tone many of you can get in your recordings.

Nice illustration.

Do you think you could name an example of an altered chord and a soloing note selection that one should avoid (handle with care)?

If I play a G7#9, does that mean I need to watch using 9ths in my solo because it may clash with the 9th?

Do they clash because they are a 1/2 step apart?

Thanks.

[FatJeff]

OK. I just read through the chapters (8-10) and have a couple of comments.

(1) Opinion: I really dislike the idea that "the altered scale is nothing but the melodic minor scale up a half step." I can see what's coming up next: "the Lydian dominant scale is just the the melodic minor scale up a perfect fifth." In my experience, learning the altered scale, the Lydian dominant scale and the melodic minor scales as separate entities in and of themselves is the only way to really internalize their sounds. Learning them as modes of MM is a crutch that might be helpful at first, but will eventually become a hindrance. The reason is that the ear will lock into the sound of the MM scale, not the unique sound of the scale in question.* That said, we're not yet on Chapter 11, which is where using the altered scale in the conneting game comes into play, so I'll just go along with the program and practice the scales as written.

(2) Observation: The fretboard charts for the altered scale use in Chapt. 10 are a little confusing in relation to the Patterns we've been dealing with so far. Up to this point, since we've been strictly diatonic (including the subs we've used), all apreggios have lain within one Pattern. For example, ii-V-I in the key of C, we use Pattern III throughout. But once you throw that altered scale in there in place of the V7, it no longer exists within Pattern III. If you look at the charts in Chapt. 10 closely, you can see that the altered scale pattern for Pattern I is the Pattern III melodic minor scale; the altered scale pattern for Pattern II is the Pattern IV melodic minor scale; the altered scale pattern for Pattern III is the Pattern V melodic minor scale; and the altered scale pattern for Pattern IV is the Pattern I melodic minor scale.

(3) Observation: when playing the connecting game using the altered scale over the dom7 in the different situations, you play notes from the scale, not the chord tones. This is a departure from previous versions of the connecting game. No big deal, but it is an important difference that we need to keep in mind when playing. There is also no indication on whether we are supposed to play the scale in succession (up and down), or just pull random notes from the scale. Probably working on both would be good.

* The best way that I found to internalize any scale is to sing it (alone, usually while driving my car with the windows up!), both ascending and descending, then in thirds, both ascending and descending, through the cycle of 4ths. You really get them internalized this way and you don't have to rely on this artificial transposition crutch you always hear (sorry, Emily Remler).

[fep]

I am still amazed at the tone many of you can get in your recordings.

Nice illustration.

Do you think you could name an example of an altered chord and a soloing note selection that one should avoid (handle with care)?

If I play a G7#9, does that mean I need to watch using 9ths in my solo because it may clash with the 9th?

Do they clash because they are a 1/2 step apart?

Thanks.

My experiment:

My hypothesis was that two parts of the music can depart from each other and the listener is able to hear the logic of both of them. Both parts are making a logical path to the same destination.

I think it works, even though there are a lot of 'collisions'.

Take rhythm changes, a lot of players do not follow those really quick changes. Instead they play something over the tonic, maybe visit the dominant or a ii V, but not chasing the changes. Or, maybe play a blues scale over those changes. This all results in collisions.

Or even look at Rhythm Changes melody over some of the variations of the changes. Collisions.

Like you said, I think tempo has a lot to do with it. And one probably wants to resolve their lines on a consonant tone.
___________________________

Any avoid tones over an altered dominant?

I think you have to use your ear, and I'm thinking use you're ear when you're working out the tune. When practicing you'll find lines you like and lines you don't. That's as good as I can do as it seems almost every note is fair game.

And the 1/2 step apart ones are were you might find the trouble. But as passing tones, if it's quick enough then I don't think it matters.

[AlsoRan]

Thanks for your inputs, Fep and FJ.

Food for thought...

[fep]

OK. I just read through the chapters (8-10) and have a couple of comments.

(1) Opinion: I really dislike the idea that "the altered scale is nothing but the melodic minor scale up a half step." I can see what's coming up next: "the Lydian dominant scale is just the the melodic minor scale up a perfect fifth." In my experience, learning the altered scale, the Lydian dominant scale and the melodic minor scales as separate entities in and of themselves is the only way to really internalize their sounds. Learning them as modes of MM is a crutch that might be helpful at first, but will eventually become a hindrance. The reason is that the ear will lock into the sound of the MM scale, not the unique sound of the scale in question.* That said, we're not yet on Chapter 11, which is where using the altered scale in the conneting game comes into play, so I'll just go along with the program and practice the scales as written.

I agree with all this. When playing A dorian, as a comparison, we play the same notes and perhaps the same pattern as G major, but I'm not thinking G major, I'm thinking/hearing the notes in the context of A minor. And I actually visualize the fretboard that way, I kind of see a grip with the scale fitting on or over or within that grip. That's how I connect the intervals from the fretboard to my ears with this visual connection. For instance, if I hear that I want to start (or end) a line on a ninth scale degree of an Am chord, I know where the nines are by using this visual connection.

I'm not there with the altered (melodic minor) scale. It doesn't seem to fit over the grips as nicely, or maybe I'm just not making that scale to chord grip visual connection yet.

It sure is easy though to learn the melodic minor by thinking (major scale with a flat third). Or, dorian with a raised 7. Yes a crutch, or can we say 'training wheels'?

[FatJeff]

Crutch, training wheels, whatever - eventually one gets to the point where the ear takes over (whcih is as it should be in my opinion). I'm nearly there, but then again I've done quite a bit of work the the altered scale (as well as MM and the Lydian om scales) before. I still do have to think a bit though.

Case in point, today I spent some time doing long ii-V-Is (Situation 1) with the altered scale as the V. Depending on where in the pattern I was when entering the altered scale from the ii, I had to slow down and think about where I was ... the easy one seems to be when I approach the root, in which case I know to either ascend with b9 - #9 - 3, or descend in whole tones. The tricky one seems to be when ascending up to the natural 3 - the next tone would be #11 (b5), and then ascend in whole tones from there. (Does any of that make any sense?)

[fep]

Case in point, today I spent some time doing long ii-V-Is (Situation 1) with the altered scale as the V. Depending on where in the pattern I was when entering the altered scale from the ii, I had to slow down and think about where I was ... the easy one seems to be when I approach the root, in which case I know to either ascend with b9 - #9 - 3, or descend in whole tones. The tricky one seems to be when ascending up to the natural 3 - the next tone would be #11 (b5), and then ascend in whole tones from there. (Does any of that make any sense?)

I haven't starting working with that yet (ch. 11, I believe). I just played a little bit with it now. I really need to think in terms of the V. Thinking melodic minor 1/2 step up just messes me up. I think I understand what your saying about connecting while ascending to the third of the V chord. I like the way it sounds

However a descending line that connects to the third of the V chord, that doesn't sound right. It starts 3 #9 b9 R, my ear wants me to do this 3 (then up) b5 (then down) 3 #9 b9 R. That sounds right to me.

Maybe I just need to get use to the other sound.

Another thing related to your previous post and your comment about we play the scale of the altered scale in the connecting game, not the arpeggio. I was thinking, the altered scale is kind of an arpeggio in that every note of that scale is a chord tone of the related V7alt chord.

[FatJeff]

I guess you could see it that way. I don't think it sounds nearly as convincing when you take every other note of the altered scale, so in this case at least, it's more a scalar approach than a arp approach.

Another day, another several hours of practicing this stuff. :-)

[Frank67]

The concept of the altered scale was really new to me and I also had never studied melodic minor. For me the crutch to think of it as the major scale with a flattened 3rd works best. I agree with Jeff that eventually the ears should take over but memorizing the shapes works best for me this way. I only have two positions in my fingers yet but hope to find some time to get all five.

Today I did the connecting game (the long 2-5-1 in minor) and played the altered scale over the 5 chord (Bb over A7). I liked the sound of it very much. All of a sudden it started to sound a lot more jazzy. It creates so much interesting tension between the 2 and the 1 chord that nicely resolves. I have a lot more work to do before posting meaningful videos (too much stress at work lately) but the start was already a lot of fun.

For the substitions: I thought that the IVmaj7 over the II chord sounds good. I also like the sound of the III-7 over the Imaj7 chord (although it sounds a bit boring ... perhaps more like a rock player soloing over jazz progressions). The VI-7 over the Imaj7 doesn't sound so good to me and I also wasn't too thrilled by the sound of the VII-7b5 over the V7 chord. Maybe that's just me. Generally speaking I guess it is easier for me to remember that the 9 generally sounds quite ok and put that into the arpeggio rather than thinking about the substitution that i have optionally available. How do you feel about this?

PS: does somebody know the magic trick to tell band in a box to leave the 5 out of a given chord?

[fep]

The concept of the altered scale was really new to me and I also had never studied melodic minor. For me the crutch to think of it as the major scale with a flattened 3rd works best. I agree with Jeff that eventually the ears should take over but memorizing the shapes works best for me this way. I only have two positions in my fingers yet but hope to find some time to get all five.

Today I did the connecting game (the long 2-5-1 in minor) and played the altered scale over the 5 chord (Bb over A7). I liked the sound of it very much. All of a sudden it started to sound a lot more jazzy. It creates so much interesting tension between the 2 and the 1 chord that nicely resolves. I have a lot more work to do before posting meaningful videos (too much stress at work lately) but the start was already a lot of fun.

For the substitions: I thought that the IVmaj7 over the II chord sounds good. I also like the sound of the III-7 over the Imaj7 chord (although it sounds a bit boring ... perhaps more like a rock player soloing over jazz progressions). The VI-7 over the Imaj7 doesn't sound so good to me and I also wasn't too thrilled by the sound of the VII-7b5 over the V7 chord. Maybe that's just me. Generally speaking I guess it is easier for me to remember that the 9 generally sounds quite ok and put that into the arpeggio rather than thinking about the substitution that i have optionally available. How do you feel about this?

PS: does somebody know the magic trick to tell band in a box to leave the 5 out of a given chord?

I agree the altered scale does sound really jazzy, I can't wait to get to practicing that.

I also like the sound of the IVmaj7 over the II chord. The other ones aren't doing that much for me. I haven't been practicing the VII7b5 over the V7 chord (because the author hasn't asked us to yet). I think one of the benefits of the subs in addition to different sounds is that much of your vocabulary over, for instance, the iiim7 will also work over the Imaj7 chord. That gives you more options.

I'm stuck on chapter 7. I set the goal of doing what you (Franklearns) do. I want to be able to shift my way up through the patterns for each of the Situations 1 - 4 including all substitutions before moving on. Situations 2 and 4 are taking some time, I want to have recordings for each of those, I get tripped up somewhere as I work my way through the positions.

[edh]

I have been visiting this thread and you guys have convinced me to order ITJS.

It should arrive around the 18th - 19th of next week.

[fep]

Hi edh, Welcome aboard

[gingerjazz]

I guess you could see it that way. I don't think it sounds nearly as convincing when you take every other note of the altered scale, so in this case at least, it's more a scalar approach than a arp approach.
Another day, another several hours of practicing this stuff. :-)

Hi Jeff,i thought this might be a good time to mention that later on in the book Elliot introduces the idea of harmonizing the Altered scale and then building lines on those arpeggios.I have found this to be a great thing to do.Especially the minor/major seven arp,and the Major 7#5 arp.I personally do look at the altered scale as one big arpeggio,or maybe better still a collection of arpeggios.Just my own view of course.While i agree that learning scales as separate entities is a good thing,i think with this particular scale it is less critical than it would be with say thinking C major scale for a D dorian situation.As Fep says every note of the scale could be thought of as a chord tone.I have also found in my case at least that when i first began using these scales,arps that at first they did not sound too good,however after my confidence built they began to sound better.I think that altered scale lines must be played with conviction or they can sound just plain wrong.Peace.

[onetruevibe]

Hey guys,

I'm still here! I did read chapter 7 and put the melodic minor under finger, but I'm planning on staying with substitutions for another week or two. It's really improved my playing and I want to milk it for all it's worth.

The subs that are sounding good to me are:
IV7 in place of the ii7
iii7 in place of the I7

Brian

[jazzuki]

Me as well Brian.Sticking to reviewing all chapters upto lesson 10 even for just 1 hour a day,

[Frank67]

Dear friends,

today I finally had a little time to toy around with some video recordings. Here are two videos on minor scale practicing. The first is just the C melodic minor scale through five positions and the second is the way I like to practice new scales. There is a lot of work to be done before the melodic minor will feel natural to me. But at least the arpeggios start to sink in.

Enjoy your practice time!

[FatJeff]

Just as a heads up to fep: I won't be on the forums much for the next month and a half. I'm continuing to practice Situations 1, 2, 3, and 4 in Patterns I/II (and III/IV for minor), as well as the altered scale stuff. I'll check back in from time to time but since I'm busy with kids this summer, I'm settling for just a "keep my head above water" mode. :-)

[fep]

Cool Jeff, Have fun with the family.