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I am very curious about all Your improvisational thinking about licks vs. scales vs. arpeggios. Which You use most? MY teacher said that he only uses scales, arpeggios, and never uses licks. Thats truly interesting, because I never used scales but licks... He said that it is not as good for jazz as scales, because these licks are stable enough not to call it jazz in an improvisational situation. I will always play the same, and if I play scales, I can make meloides from those simultaneously, which is much more jazz than using forward built licks.
He said he is thinking in scales, arpeggios, and pentatonics, but never in licks.
Thats more interesting technically, because he rarely moves more than 1-2 frets, and my licks are up and down the neck, so he can play faster.
What do You think about this?
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03-01-2012 02:01 PM
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Vocabulary trumps all. If you have a limited time to practice I would highly recommend playing jazz vocabulary, either from lead sheets, written transcriptions, or by ear. If you only have 20 minutes a day, taking that 20 minutes a day to figure out a Charlie Parker line (even if takes you the whole week to get it) is well worth it.
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Limited time to practice, sounds familiar, how about a five minute warm up exercise that can help. Pick a key to start say F Major, play the scale beginning on low E string 1st position to high E string and back down. Next play the harmonized chords for the scale up and back down. Now play the arrpegios for the chords up and down. Then play a song in that key using some parts of the three things you have just done. Now take a lick you are working on and work that into the song. You have just used all of the techniques quickly and efficiently.
When transitioning to Jazz I did that through all the keys and it was very helpful. I spent about 15 minutes a day and rotated the key each day. In a couple of months I could move around the neck fairly comfortably. I played the the key of F from various positions i.e. 1st fret 1st string 3rd fret 3rd string and worked out the harmonized chord voicings and arrpeggios based on the position and pretty quickly increased my recognition of notes without having to manually count them. It will also give you alternate voicings of chords and help you actually learn songs. For the key of F i used Suicide the theme from Mash. Something I could "hear" had a chart for and liked. Use a different song for every key to keep you from just doing rote repitition. The melodies will dictate certain things and force you to actually work them out.Last edited by ptrallan01; 03-02-2012 at 03:00 PM.
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Transcribing licks and practicing arpeggios over the changes of real tunes.
Playing tunes...heads, chords...interpreting a melody...
Ear training, singing a line, playing it back. If this was all I had time to do, this would be it.
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Hi! I´ve got two questions about what ptrallan wrote:
- When you say "play the scale" are you refering to the first possiton only, or along the fretboard?
- The chords of the harmonized scale must be played within the tensions?
I´m starting to study jazz and i don´t know where to begin!
Thank you very much and sorry about my english.
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Considering the vocabulary is made up of arpeggios and scales, I'd say go for the vocabulary, as it shows not only how to play arpeggios and scales, but also when and why. Now, the study of arpeggios and scales makes it easier to learn the vocabulary, because, as mentioned, the vocabulary is full of 'em.
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There are multiple ways to play scales so I started with the root on the low E string using the index (first) finger. Then next time through root on the A string and so on. Then I picked out the chords from that root position and then the arpeggios from that position. I did this from the F on the E string to the E at the 12th fret. As I moved through the various positions I tried to play a new song in that key each time. Also are some grips that feel more comfortable so I use them i.e. 767 for an E7 as opposed to 7675. So I add the 9th by playing 7677. Then you can also play 7678 for a sharp 9 or 7676 for a flat 9.
By playing different songs for each position and each key you can practice different melodies and licks.
Hope this helps. Gracias para la pregunta!Last edited by ptrallan01; 03-15-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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Yeah I did that stuff for a while too, but it got me literally nowhere in being able to play jazz. If it's helping you actually play jazz, then I'm happy for you. But you should be aware that you might be able to spend your time more efficiently.
Originally Posted by ptrallan01
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Vocabulary is no. 1. Learn the great jazz licks first.
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Well my take on this... Do it ALL!
But practicing scales and arps "mechanically" should only take up a small fraction of your practice time.
On the other hand improvising using a particular scale or arp can be a pretty good excercize IMO.
Also going thru tunes playing the arps of the basic chords or corresponding scales (more or less mechanically) can be a great exercize.
But still the mother of all excercizes seems to me transcribing. It will give you a lot of the most important things:
1) Hearing a line and being able to determine the notes. Either singing it or simply hearing it precisely in your head.
2) Being able to play any line you have in your head on the guitar.
3) Building a vocabulary. This of course requieres that you pick out some lines in the solos you transcribe and play them in different positions. And relate them to certain chords.
4) If you analyze what you have transribed a bit you'll learn WHEN to apply WHAT.
Ah and if you wanna learn to play/improvise don't forget to .. well .. do THAT too
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There is good advice here. I agree with several people. Over all to be fluent in the any style of music you need to know the vocabulary and grammar (Scales/arp). But if you are limited on time I would suggest transcribing, but when you transcribe always try to figure out how the notes he is playing fit into the scale and how the notes he plays fits over the chord. Transcribing can teach you scales, arpeggios and vocabulary.
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Thanks guys, there are so many things to study that I divide my time (little time).
First of all I play "II/V" in all keys in major seconds descending with chords, scales and arpegios.
Then I take Aebersold book vol1 and I make some exercises.
After that, I spend the rest of the time playing some tunes that we play in the combo sessions that I use to go.
Do you guys think is ok? or maybe I´m not in the right way?
One of the problems that I find when I improvise in a jazzy way is that I have a lot of rock/funk licks that I´m used to but don´t work so well in a jazz chords progresion. The difficult thing for me is to change the scale every bar or to bars. In rock yo can say "ok this is in A minor, let´s take dorian or minor pentatonic or whatever scale and play it all over the tune.
I suppose that I have to train myself in the scale changes in order to make my playing something natural.
Now I´m really motivated with jazz guitar and I hope to learn how to play over the changes just without getting lost.
I don´t need to be Metheny.
I´m happy I´ve foud such a good website!
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Limited practice time may not be as limited as you think. Work on other things like rhythm and listening and do ear training as you listen. Do this outside your "practice" time.
Use the search feature at the top of this page, I think it's the 6th menu tab from the left on the top menu bar, and type in Practice Routine in the little white box when it comes up. Hit "GO" and check out some of the other threads where other members have asked similar questions.
I hope there's something in there you might have missed.
Good luck
Oh yeah, my advice: Patience. It ain't gonna come fast or easy.
David
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The best and most enjoyable way of learning improvisation involves really getting to know a bunch of tunes inside out.
All of the characteristics that distinguish jazz improvisation from other types of popular music ultimately come from the old repertoire.
Swing feel, syncopation, 3 against 4, chromaticism, blue notes, modulation, parallelism, 2 5 1s, circle of fifths, altered chords, turnarounds etc. are all to be found in the tunes that most jazz guitarists play.
It seems an obvious point, but while practicing scales and arpeggios can be really fruitful ways of getting to know the guitar, the most important thing in my view is to accumulate a bunch of standards and play them as often as possible, both melody and chords that is.
After they become second nature, you will find yourself altering and embellishing them, and bringing in other concepts that you can acquire from websites such as this.
This is a short list of quite varied standards:
Don't get around much anymore
Stella by Starlight
Girl from Ipanema
All blues
All the things you are
Take five
Misty
These tunes are an education in themselves, and knowing them thoroughly would provide a good basis from which to explore techniques of improvisation. They are also good fun to play.Last edited by Fred Pepper; 03-30-2012 at 08:05 PM.
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"Time" is more important. If your time's no good, then your scales and arps are no good. Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
Sit down with a metronome (or drum machine -- whatever) and play slowly first, long tones, then quarter notes, then maybe 8th notes. Then bump up the tempo after a while and do the same thing. Record yourself and listen back; are you on the beat, ahead, behind, inconsistent?
Time, my friend.
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definitly transcribing and listening to the music you would like to play.
wiz
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Thanks for the suggestions. I´m practising II/V with scales and arpeggios, with whole tone and circle of fives.
I play the scales of the song "Bye Bye Blackbird" until the 7th up and down. I,m transcribing miles solo of that tune, it´s easy to play but it sounds amazing! and I can see clearly how to use the scales over the changes.
I´m starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel!
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There is no substitute for learning the major scale. Beyond that, scales with all the greek names, etc., (modes) can be a bit counterproductive if they cause you to emphasive non-chord tones. Personally, I tend to think "minor" rather than "melodic minor" or "dorian" or whatever so that I am more focused on the chord and passing tones than say, the 4th.
So ... after being able to play major scales all over the keyboard, you need to learn chords; the standard "Mickey Baker" grips, shell voicings, etc.
Like folks say, learn licks, bop heads, etc. There are a handful of Charlie Christian licks that you could start from; build from there. I don't agree, BTW, that rock or funk licks do not work for jazz.
But as noted above, the most important thing is time. Correct notes that don't swing sound lame; wrong notes played in time usually work fine. Personally, I far prefer a looper like a jamman to a metronome because of the immediate feedback. Record a rhythm track, listen to it, keep at it until you get it right; then solo over it, listen to it, keep at it until it sounds good.
Another tip; check out the backing tracks at ralphpatt.com and/or put them on your looper. A good way to learn tunes at a pro tempo.
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I pretty much never use licks either. As your teacher suggests, if you just play licks all the time, you are not really improvising. With that said, I don't think there is anything wrong with using licks, especially as a basis for improvisation, i.e. doing variations on a lick. But if all you are doing is stringing together memorized licks, it gets boring. I'd say if your gonna do it, at least take the time to make some of your own unique licks. Every great jazz player does have their own signature licks after all. A lot of jazz I hear tends to bore me because it does all start to sound the same after a while.
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All of the above, but hopefully only as something to fall back on when I'm not actually hearing ideas (maybe a fast tempo or reading a tune I don't know well or when I'm just feeling like I suck). I think it's kind of disingenuous for anybody to say they never play licks. Sure, it's pretty easy to create ideas at 180 bpm, but what about 280+? I was transcribing a Shorter solo a few years ago and was struck by the fact that over the course of a few choruses, he played some pretty similar ideas in the same spots...they weren't the same exact line...they were like three variations on the same line...yet he's not a guy you'd think of as a lick player in quite the same way as somebody like Stitt.
I tend to think that most of the greats have developed their own vocabulary that they use time and time again, yet gets bent and shaped to sound different and gradually evolves over time. So, an 8th note line may get played someplace else exactly the same, but as a 16th note line. Or an 8th note line may get played on the and of 4 and later on exactly the same, but on the and of 2. Or with a triplet in the middle, or preceded by chromaticism. A G7 line may get played over Db7, Bb7, or E7. A similar idea might be played over G7alt, Abm6, Db9b5, Fm7b5, etc. I think a whole lot can be done with a few good ideas and a strong rhythmic concept...I'd rather hear that than a bunch of ideas with bad feel or corny rhythm. Look at the 7th chords built off of not only the root, but also the 3rd, 5th and 7th of any chord (so Dm7 could potentially have and Fmaj7 idea, an Amin7 idea, and Cmaj idea...Fmaj7=Dm9, Am7=Dm11, Cmaj7=Dm13).
Sorry for the tangent. I tend to think it's all fair game as long as it feels good.
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Licks, (scales, arpeggios) if thought of as constructive tools, are part of one's lexicon. They are the materials of vocabulary.
How you put them together is a function of syntax. You need to use them with a knowledge of their order, their context and understand the logic, the theory underlying, so you can re-order and employ the constructive elements creatively.
What you say, what you are actually doing this all for, that's semantic content. What is the purpose of the sound you're making? What is the message. Why do you speak?
This is the way language: Lexicon, syntax, semantics.
If your playing is a language, it is infinite, expression, an extension of yourself.
If your playing is the mindless regurgitation of something you ingested without thought... well I'd rather not be around when it comes out.
DavidLast edited by TH; 10-05-2013 at 08:06 AM.
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There's no "vs."
Playing a lick in a jazz context isn't "okay, when that Am7 chord comes up I'm gonna play my cool new lick." You think like that you're dead. Our licks come out of our subconscious...it's the stuff we know in our sleep.
Your teacher doesn't have some pet patterns he plays when running those arpeggios?
I don't trust people who say they don't have licks. They just haven't listened to their own playing enough to realize it.
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My preference is to think of an improvisor as having all the same tools available as a composer but operating within a real time framework, this moment, right now.Melody, counter-melody, harmony, rhythm, dynamics, color, development of an idea. The source of inspiration can be a technical musical idea or poetic/emotional one.
licks vs. scales vs. arpeggios
What is gained by viewing these things in opposition to each other, an either/or situation?
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What I have found is that for a given tune, or for certain harmonic clichés (min-minmaj7-min7-min6), I find something that works really well. I might call those my licks. Then I spend a great deal of time trying to avoid playing them, or more precisely, to come up with other things that sound as good. Or at least to find ways to rephrase them. Then there are my more amorphous tendencies. I also spend time trying to identify and eliminate them. So I have an antagonistic relationship with my licks.
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I practice all of the above including various rhythmic fragments and sequenced patterns of each scales when I have the time to practice. But when I'm on stage improvising, I try to forget them all and just create melodies that I actually hear in my head, though I am not quite able to sing my lines as I play...yet. I think the reason for practicing is to be able to care less about the changes and chord-scale theory, and pick out all the tonalities and ideas without thinking too much...instead of practicing to play fast lines and show off what you know. I think the most important thing is to think about what sounds "Musical", not about which application would be better than the other.
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