Did Troy Grady prove there is a correct picking technique?

[Christian Miller]

I'll go out on a limb and say there is a downside to having superior technique. It takes a lot of practice time to achieve superior technique, and that time could be spent working on other things that, in my humble opinion, are more useful musically.

You could say that if you have a good method for technique it would take less time and get it out of the way.

Honestly, I think technique is the least interesting thing about music. But solving technical challenges that come up while playing music is productive and interesting work.

[pamosmusic]

I agree. I even would go as far to say that outside of GJ many are not taught that DWPS is an option. So so alt picking and great LH work would be more standard. Likely coming out of rock/fusion so for stylistic reasons but also bc picking of any kind is not taught well.

Yeah so honestly “alt picking and great LH technique” probably describes me, with all the pickhand limitations implied therein. But I also have a super organized approach to keeping the LH slurs tied to particular rhythmic placements and I’ve spent a lot of time thinking of ways to improve my pickhand dexterity and stuff (lots of LR drum studies and things which has had a big payoff I think).

I think that kind of goes to the technique being a bit more of a holistic thing. There are lots of elements to playing fast and getting a good sound. Clifford is an interesting one. I was obsessed with him for a while, and a trumpet friend talked about him constantly in college. He never talked about the speed as such. It was always the articulation he commented on. Having that much control at any tempo was the impressive part, not the speed as such.

[ccroft]

The legend goes on…..

Apologies to the forum for going off topic, but things seem to have quieted on this thread. And besides, when did going off topic ever stop anyone?

In fact, in '73/74 I played several gigs in Portland with my guitar in my lap and a bandana tied around the nut on a couple of 'tunes'. Two handed tapping with lots of double and triple stops. I doubt I was first, but in those days there weren't no YouTube and I wasn't aware of anyone else doing it.

As to the details in your earlier post, costumes weren't anything beyond the typical hippy-wear of the times: sandals, beret, silk scarf, dashiki, poncho, etc. I guess a poncho with a beret could appear to be a scrotum costume though :-)

Also, it wasn't symphonic rock. At the time we billed ourselves as 'Live Jazz Exorcism'.

Soon after, we discovered how much better it was to fill a dance floor, rather than just have a couple of pretty young girls twirling about in ecstatic trance, as nice as it was.

And I got bored with tapping, finding picking to be more expressive and satisfying. Too stupid or stoned to think of doing both at the same time.

[James W]

I'm about half way through this new video. Seems pretty good so far, mostly clarifying past content.

[BreckerFan]

I saw the title of this thread and my first reaction was "of course not, who would even post this."

Oops.

[sgcim]

I saw the title of this thread and my first reaction was "of course not, who would even post this."

Oops.

I saw the title of this thread so close to Halloween and it scared the bejesus out of me. With all of the horror movies being watched that feature kids playing with Ouija Boards, some innocent young jazz guitarist was bound to get his friends together and inadvertently call up the spirit of Richard Bornman..
And sure enough, it happened; it just migrated to another thread.

[Cunamara]

Heh, scary sgcim!

Regarding guitar technique. Over the past few months I have been studying the Alexander Technique, motivated by chronic neck and back pain accumulated over 47 years of poor use of my body while playing guitar, among other activities. I am finding it quite helpful with the pain, but it is interesting that my guitar technique is improving even though the Alexander lessons are not focusing at all on that. Our British members, in particular, may already be aware of this as Alexander teachers are often embedded in university and conservatories.

I bring this up because our guitar technique is not divorced from how we use ourselves in all situations. If we have poor habits which result in suboptimal large and small motor functioning while sitting, standing, walking, eating lunch, etc, then probably also while playing the guitar. By improving our use of ourselves generally (daily life), we also improve the use of ourselves specifically (playing guitar). If we don't use ourselves well, we make it much more difficult to improve our musicality and musical technique.

I think you can see a great example of this by watching videos of Julian Lage, who apparently is a certified Alexander Technique teacher. As I understand it, he got interested in this after suffering focal motor dystonia and learned the technique to recover from that. Watch him play, particularly standing, and you can see how his head dynamically rebalances on a free and unclenched neck, how his shoulders are well attached to his back, how he is balanced effortlessly over his hips and ankles, and overall how free he appears physically when playing. This translates into the remarkable musical freedom he has when playing. Yes, he has spent tens of thousands of hours since he was six years old working on guitar technique, learning theory and songs, etc.; but he has also spent thousands of hours working on himself and how he uses his body generally to support the performance of music.

[Alter]

I've done Alexander technique sessions too, to battle neck pain from guitar playing, and they greatly helped me.

It was all about posture, efficiency and economy of movement, looking to resolve whatever might create unnecessary tension. And of course your technique only gains from it. A huge percentage of guitar playing related physical problems can be overcome just by correcting mistakes and adjusting technique.

But I don't think there is one correct or best way to play. I've literally tried all picking styles and each one has advantages and disadvantages, so they're just suited to different approaches.

[Christian Miller]

I saw the title of this thread and my first reaction was "of course not, who would even post this."

Oops.

That’s happened to me a couple of times haha


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[Christian Miller]

All I can say is my technique is shifting again. I think I’m becoming more of an alternate picker.

It’s sobering though, I think I’ve lost my Manouche acoustic rest stroke chop* as I get better at playing electric.

*I only ever had one chop

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[Christian Miller]

Heh, scary sgcim!

Regarding guitar technique. Over the past few months I have been studying the Alexander Technique, motivated by chronic neck and back pain accumulated over 47 years of poor use of my body while playing guitar, among other activities. I am finding it quite helpful with the pain, but it is interesting that my guitar technique is improving even though the Alexander lessons are not focusing at all on that. Our British members, in particular, may already be aware of this as Alexander teachers are often embedded in university and conservatories.

I bring this up because our guitar technique is not divorced from how we use ourselves in all situations. If we have poor habits which result in suboptimal large and small motor functioning while sitting, standing, walking, eating lunch, etc, then probably also while playing the guitar. By improving our use of ourselves generally (daily life), we also improve the use of ourselves specifically (playing guitar). If we don't use ourselves well, we make it much more difficult to improve our musicality and musical technique.

I think you can see a great example of this by watching videos of Julian Lage, who apparently is a certified Alexander Technique teacher. As I understand it, he got interested in this after suffering focal motor dystonia and learned the technique to recover from that. Watch him play, particularly standing, and you can see how his head dynamically rebalances on a free and unclenched neck, how his shoulders are well attached to his back, how he is balanced effortlessly over his hips and ankles, and overall how free he appears physically when playing. This translates into the remarkable musical freedom he has when playing. Yes, he has spent tens of thousands of hours since he was six years old working on guitar technique, learning theory and songs, etc.; but he has also spent thousands of hours working on himself and how he uses his body generally to support the performance of music.

AT can be a bit culty, but I learned to swim Shaw method from an Alexander practitioner and it gives me a very free and relaxed technique in the water. I can see that it could help with instrumental technique. In fact my swim instructor was also doing a study of guitarists, including me (just observing.) I wonder what became of that.


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[Mick-7]

In fact my swim instructor was also doing a study of guitarists, including me (just observing.) I wonder what became of that.

He had to give it up, it was too traumatic for him, was having terrible nightmares, etc.

[sgcim]

All I can say is my technique is shifting again. I think I’m becoming more of an alternate picker.

It’s sobering though, I think I’ve lost my Manouche acoustic rest stroke chop* as I get better at playing electric.

*I only ever had one chop

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No! Don't let it possess you! You were annoyed when I pointed out that Pat Martino was an alternate picker in that thread about players who could swing when playing constant 8th notes, and you brought up Adam Rogers.
You're still a young man; you can't let a 'geezer' like Pat Martino influence you! You've got to remain 'now' and ' with it'.
Even if it means taking a Trans-Atlantic flight to seek out AR's help; don't give in!

[BreckerFan]

*I only ever had one chop

Why waste time, use many chops when one chop do trick

[starjasmine]

I'm about half way through this new video. Seems pretty good so far, mostly clarifying past content.

Yes, there are a number of helpful clarifications. It made some interesting points about how to develop RH technique; among them the perhaps-controversial (what? here?!?) premise that the way to develop precise, fast RH plectrum technique is to practice at whatever speed the technique you wish to acquire appears, without worrying so much about the notes. This is a refinement of "don't work up to fast, start there" to "start at the speed that facilitates the picking technique you are trying to acquire."

He uses a number of examples to show how some techniques seem better suited to slower passages and other techniques facilitate faster picking. At about 10:16 there is a super-interesting slo-mo video analysis of how Andy Wood switches from DBX to DSX mid-phrase when his picking speed crosses a certain threshold.

I also stumbled on this one the other day, despite it being 4 years old, and found it quite helpful. TL;DR: Pointier picks require more edge picking, rounder picks less.

As a result, I've gone down the rathole of trying about 5 different picks for a few days... but in a good way :-)

[KPJazz]

There is definitely an ideal technique for a certain sound aesthetic, one that ideally allows you a broad range of expressive power whatever ideals you have in your head - linear, harmonic, rhythmic, authoritive, even, broad dynamics…

[Christian Miller]

No! Don't let it possess you! You were annoyed when I pointed out that Pat Martino was an alternate picker in that thread about players who could swing when playing constant 8th notes, and you brought up Adam Rogers.
You're still a young man; you can't let a 'geezer' like Pat Martino influence you! You've got to remain 'now' and ' with it'.
Even if it means taking a Trans-Atlantic flight to seek out AR's help; don't give in!

I mean AR is almost 60. I shan’t disclose my age, but I’ll take ‘young man’ :-)

But ARs note placement is mesmerisingly exact with econ picking. The forums own BreckerFan is getting there with his playing. I do think it’s easier to get that with alt picking actually - which is what you said. I’m actually shifting over to it a bit. But I think your position is too absolutist.

(Besides which asDJG points out Pat might sound like he’s picking all the notes - but he isn’t.) There’s plenty of alt pickers who really don’t swing otoh.

But you shift the problem depending on your choice of approach. Alt picking is harder mechanically, so you have to practice and moan about technique more. Many always struggle with faster tempos because the technique is not taught form a mechanical perspective often, but from a ‘you must do this’ perspective. OTOH Econ picking while fairly easy to learn tends to rush so you have to focus on time. And so on.

The kids are mostly into people like Pasquale Grasso (and old players like Billy Bean) in my endz. It’s a bop revival.

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[sgcim]

I mean AR is almost 60. I shan’t disclose my age, but I’ll take ‘young man’ :-)

But ARs note placement is mesmerisingly exact with econ picking. The forums own BreckerFan is getting there with his playing. I do think it’s easier to get that with alt picking actually - which is what you said. I’m actually shifting over to it a bit. But I think your position is too absolutist.

(Besides which asDJG points out Pat might sound like he’s picking all the notes - but he isn’t.) There’s plenty of alt pickers who really don’t swing otoh.

But you shift the problem depending on your choice of approach. Alt picking is harder mechanically, so you have to practice and moan about technique more. Many always struggle with faster tempos because the technique is not taught form a mechanical perspective often, but from a ‘you must do this’ perspective. OTOH Econ picking while fairly easy to learn tends to rush so you have to focus on time. And so on.

The kids are mostly into people like Pasquale Grasso (and old players like Billy Bean) in my endz. It’s a bop revival.

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You're improvising, you pick whatever way is best to get those notes out. Nobody plays one way all the time.

[Christian Miller]

You're improvising, you pick whatever way is best to get those notes out. Nobody plays one way all the time.

If you are playing fast enough for the technical stuff that Tory Grady worries about to be important, then it will be stuff you’ve practiced. Whether that’s short modules or whole licks. So you can take this stuff apart at the granular level in the practice room.


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[BreckerFan]

The forums own BreckerFan is getting there with his playing.

You're too kind, I'm blushing.

I think it was Gambale who said something like "playing fast with economy picking is easy, playing in time with economy picking takes a lifetime of practice." I have definitely found that to be the case for me. The amount of work required to upkeep it is also a lot.

[BreckerFan]

You're improvising, you pick whatever way is best to get those notes out. Nobody plays one way all the time.

I think this is a common mindset towards jazz guitar technique and improvisation, but I don't think it needs to be the case.

I've given my spiel about this in other threads, but the advantage and disadvantage of guitar is that there are multiple ways to fret the same thing. The default approach a lot of players take is to let what's easiest for the left hand dictate what the right hand is doing. But I think doing the opposite, rearranging freting hand stuff to make the right hand's job easier, can actually produce a better result.

I went all out on this with sweep picking which means embracing some big stretches in the left hand which may not be for everyone. But it's not the only way to use this principle; Cecil Alexander talks about using hammers and pull offs to produce an even number of notes per string which fits with his alternate picking technique. Troy Grady has done us a service by investigating great players and showing that even when they're not conciously aware of it, they're following a set of rules that produce harmony between what the hands are doing, not just feeding the right hand whatever the left hand comes up with in the moment.

It takes some time to get to the point where using mechanically optimized patterns in improvisation feels natural, but it's possible. And of course these rules aren't necessarily always perfectly followed. But everyone has licks; when someone sees a Bbmaj7 and wants to play the arpeggio over it, I doubt they're coming up with a different fretting hand shape every time. So the choice isn't so much between mechanical patterns and unrestricted improvisation, I think it's between deliberate, intentional mechanics and post hoc mechanics that may or may not be efficient.

I've been telling myself to make a video on sweep picking technique for like 6 months now. I made an outline recently, so it may actually happen soon.

[James W]

I think this is a common mindset towards jazz guitar technique and improvisation, but I don't think it needs to be the case.

I've given my spiel about this in other threads, but the advantage and disadvantage of guitar is that there are multiple ways to fret the same thing. The default approach a lot of players take is to let what's easiest for the left hand dictate what the right hand is doing. But I think doing the opposite, rearranging freting hand stuff to make the right hand's job easier, can actually produce a better result.

I went all out on this with sweep picking which means embracing some big stretches in the left hand which may not be for everyone. But it's not the only way to use this principle; Cecil Alexander talks about using hammers and pull offs to produce an even number of notes per string which fits with his alternate picking technique. Troy Grady has done us a service by investigating great players and showing that even when they're not conciously aware of it, they're following a set of rules that produce harmony between what the hands are doing, not just feeding the right hand whatever the left hand comes up with in the moment.

It takes some time to get to the point where using mechanically optimized patterns in improvisation feels natural, but it's possible. And of course these rules aren't necessarily always perfectly followed. But everyone has licks; when someone sees a Bbmaj7 and wants to play the arpeggio over it, I doubt they're coming up with a different fretting hand shape every time. So the choice isn't so much between mechanical patterns and unrestricted improvisation, I think it's between deliberate, intentional mechanics and post hoc mechanics that may or may not be efficient.

I've been telling myself to make a video on sweep picking technique for like 6 months now. I made an outline recently, so it may actually happen soon.

Very true and well-put. I guess what could be added to this post is that mechanically optimized improvisational patterns generally become more necessary or relevant at higher tempos (I know this in theory rather than my own experience!) - anything below say eighth notes at 250 or 260 and ones technique need not be totally efficient, although one may find that using licks is still necessary...

What I can say from personal experience is that I still feel that my left-hand leads - although I'm not 100% certain about this, it may be possible that I've chosen some left-hand fingerings because my right hand likes it. But I haven't yet got to the stage where I want to play more uptempo things which would make the optimization necessary. I'm enjoying playing tunes at around 200 BPM, but pushing myself with some things to play at 220 BPM.

I look forward to seeing your sweep picking video.

[pauln]

Someday soon...

A pedal will digitize your signal and provide it to the self contained AI which will also be monitoring the song, doing auto correct and enhancement of your input with extra notes resulting in auto-shred output.

The guitar community will look back more fondly on the old reign of the shedders.

[James W]

I haven't yet watched this but suspect it might be of interest so sharing it here ...

[Christian Miller]

I haven't yet watched this but suspect it might be of interest so sharing it here ...

I watched it and it’s super interesting, but also kind of irrelevant to jazz. Those super fast 80s scale sequences are not really something that crops up much. My problems are much more ‘how do I keep this moderately fast string crossing bebop thing on the grid?’

However, some of the aspects of alternate picking with USX are interesting observations. In jazz we can simply use a bit of phrased legato, ala Pat Martino. Also we don’t need to play that fast in the general run of things.

A lot Troy’s videos seem to be pointing towards ‘here’s something that arises naturally if you don’t overthink it’ which is funny.

This is more relevant and I think you might find it interesting

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