Did Troy Grady prove there is a correct picking technique?

[Christian Miller]

So... you saw me play in Portland Oregon in 1973? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

Actually, now that I think about it, I've never had a beard and I'm pretty sure the singer wasn't dressed as a scrotum. Are you sure you're remembering correctly? I think you got the visuals mixed up between the guitar player and the singer. It was a long time ago...

The legend goes on…..

[Christian Miller]

Whatever that's supposed to mean, but Troy doesn't "get rich trying". That's not how he makes a living as far as I know. He does high-profile HR consulting last I heard. I haven't paid for more than the equivalent of at most five guitar lessons for stuff that no guitar teacher is able to understand or teach.

That’s nice. I was saying it in jest. paywalled online teaching stuff offers a useful income stream at scale though. Not that there’s ANYTHING wrong with that per se.

It’s not an unusual model but it is unregulated in any meaningful way. I’ve heard some stories…. I don’t feel like Troy’s a grifter tho.

I also think there's in fact massive repertoire to demand such a high level of chops. I see it all the time. The Joscho/Biréli videos above directly contradict what you say. They are wonderful stuff, and I dare anyone say it's all chops and isn't supremely musical.

Well I think James and I were talking about electric /rock guitar really. There’s no shortage of difficult plectrum guitar music. Aside from GJ, you have flat picking and so on. You even had a classical plectrum guitar exam here in the Uk (much missed). Chorinhos too are challenging to flat pick (tico tico making it into the GJ rep.)

But none of that is as mainstream as what shred guitar became in the 80s I suppose.

Even 50s or earlier jazz. Take a Clifford Brown chorus, what do you do for those fast few bars, do you just give up, leave them aside... for 200 hundred choruses you'd be willing to study ? How many times are you going to give up and have to pretend speed isn't necessary in jazz? Well it is for all instruments except guitar... but wait... Django in 1937 (even Eddy Lang)... Benson, Martino,Metheny, the totality of gypsy jazz... oh no that never happened? Those guys are the reason many guys pick up the guitar.

I don’t think a careful reading of my posts would suggest I was engaging in ‘jazz guitar erasure’ haha, but indeed. I used to play a lot of gypsy jazz professionally btw. (Well I still do from time to time, but now on archtop rather than selmer-macaferri.)

I had that direct experience with my guitar teacher of long ago. Fast and clean technique infuses down to medium or slow tempos, a kind of sprightliness. Troy mentions the concept of technical "headroom" in relation to that. It goes for comping too. Without that technique you're not free to play what you want, or simply follow you teacher's assignments (in my case). There's also a number of very sharp comments on Troy's part about the organization of vocabulary around a right/left hand coordination system - it's a fascinating aspect and absolutely central in so many great players' styles.

Are you familiar by any chance with Daniel Coyle's The Talent Code ? It's an investagation into learning centers in sports and music that yield an inordinate number of "champions" in proportion to their size. Well a common thread in their pedagogy is an emphasis on technique first.

I’m not sure if you think any of this is news to me, or if this is anything I’m contesting?

I haven’t read the book and I’m kind of done with reading popular mass market books on the subject (and burned out on academic literature lol)- as a side note I’m not sure thinking in terms of ‘champions’ in music is helpful generally and I feel modern musician culture has gone too far that way tbh. Music can have elements of a competitive sport sometimes (such as in the literal competitions we have) but it is so much more.

That said the areas we are discussing are somewhat similar.

I'll go out on a limb and say chops are a legitimate aspiration. In my thirties I reached quite a high level at tennis. Tennis magazines are full of instruction about improving your playing (same for golf). It was a passion, I had books, magazines and began making extensive notes and experimenting with it all. It's a VERY SIMILAR approach to what Troy does. Anyway, I met in New York an instructor who was into teaching what the pros were really doing - again very similar to Troy's approach. He looked at my backhand and said Federer does it like this, Alberto Costa does it like that - the Costa technique looks more natural for you, I'll teach it to you. And we did it. And man, we rebuilt my backhand from the ground up. I had three variations of spin, one flat, one slice, plus volley. It was magical. I experienced a few hours over the next few years of playing "in the zone", it's not something you ever forget. It's obvious to me that technical freedom, besides physical grace and power and mental well-being, yields ideas and creativity you never thought you were capable of. Yet at the US Open around that period, I heard Nick Bolletieri, a then very famous coach, saying you couldn't change your technique as an adult ; that was in direct response to a question from the public, I feel for the guy who asked it to this day. Did I do the impossible ? Most likely, no. We just need to trust ourselves more.

If chops are your thing do that! A lot of the shred guys are coming from listening ONLY to guitar players, which I don’t think was true of EVH or Yngwie actually who took inspiration from other instruments.

I think I prefer to get my inspiration from composed music at least atm. I work on technique constantly, but for me it comes from trying to play for example, Bach two part inventions, or whatever.

Yeah, my problem is not that people want chops, it’s the way chops have a mystique on one hand and people end up having this unhelpful relationship with SPEED. Which lets face it what most guitar players mean when they talk about ‘technique.’

(Also in jazz sheer speed won’t teach you to swing and make meaningful music at fast tempos of course; you actually need rhythmic acuity and precision which I think is a separate issue - we may differ on that, but articulation is a big challenge for me when playing up tunes even though raw speed rarely is. Also rhythmically I used to get frustrated with how ‘in 2’ my solos at 280+ would sound, which can be a problem with guitar. There are ways beyond this tho, and they aren’t about chops per se.)

I would say pro jazz guitarists all have very good technique even if they choose not to make that a focus. But it tends to quite an eclectic world. Peter Bernstein has excellent chops for example even though he tends to be regarded as a restrained, spacious player. But a surprisingly large number seem to have arrived at it less as the result of teaching and more as some sort of self teaching process with divergent results (not a bad thing in itself and as say above I wonder if sometimes it’s better not to get tuition in technique than the wrong type of teaching.)

in any case I think rest stroke picking is manifestly a good model… Troy demonstrated that this can be extended to electric.

Technique should be the easiest aspect of music to discuss really. It’s scientific. So good for Troy applying some degree of science to the problem.

This is not actually to do with Troy himself - I get skeptical when one person with one view becomes THE approach - everyone, however smart and rigorous, has their blindspots. You see that a bit with Estill Voicecraft in singing and so on… (and singing has even more mystique because you have to shove a camera down your throat to see what’s going on!)

We should have more like Troy is what I’m saying (but I’m not doing it haha.)

[Christian Miller]

Anyway, ever get that thing when you’ve been listening to, I don’t know, a load of Adam Rogers playing some savage double time, and then you pick up the guitar and are surprised because what comes out sounds like Adam and has some of that evenness, speed and clarity even tho you don’t/can’t normally play like that?

or whoever?

The brain signal is really important.

[m_d]

That’s nice. I was saying it in jest. paywalled online teaching stuff offers a useful income stream at scale though. Not that there’s ANYTHING wrong with that per se.

It’s not an unusual model but it is unregulated in any meaningful way. I’ve heard some stories…. I don’t feel like Troy’s a grifter tho.



Well I think James and I were talking about electric /rock guitar really. There’s no shortage of difficult plectrum guitar music. Aside from GJ, you have flat picking and so on. You even had a classical plectrum guitar exam here in the Uk (much missed). Chorinhos too are challenging to flat pick (tico tico making it into the GJ rep.)

But none of that is as mainstream as what shred guitar became in the 80s I suppose.



I don’t think a careful reading of my posts would suggest I was engaging in ‘jazz guitar erasure’ haha, but indeed. I used to play a lot of gypsy jazz professionally btw. (Well I still do from time to time, but now on archtop rather than selmer-macaferri.)



I’m not sure if you think any of this is news to me, or if this is anything I’m contesting?

I haven’t read the book and I’m kind of done with reading popular mass market books on the subject (and burned out on academic literature lol)- as a side note I’m not sure thinking in terms of ‘champions’ in music is helpful generally and I feel modern musician culture has gone too far that way tbh. Music can have elements of a competitive sport sometimes (such as in the literal competitions we have) but it is so much more.

That said the areas we are discussing are somewhat similar.



If chops are your thing do that! A lot of the shred guys are coming from listening ONLY to guitar players, which I don’t think was true of EVH or Yngwie actually who took inspiration from other instruments.

I think I prefer to get my inspiration from composed music at least atm. I work on technique constantly, but for me it comes from trying to play for example, Bach two part inventions, or whatever.

Yeah, my problem is not that people want chops, it’s the way chops have a mystique on one hand and people end up having this unhelpful relationship with SPEED. Which lets face it what most guitar players mean when they talk about ‘technique.’

(Also in jazz sheer speed won’t teach you to swing and make meaningful music at fast tempos of course; you actually need rhythmic acuity and precision which I think is a separate issue - we may differ on that, but articulation is a big challenge for me when playing up tunes even though raw speed rarely is. Also rhythmically I used to get frustrated with how ‘in 2’ my solos at 280+ would sound, which can be a problem with guitar. There are ways beyond this tho, and they aren’t about chops per se.)

I would say pro jazz guitarists all have very good technique even if they choose not to make that a focus. But it tends to quite an eclectic world. Peter Bernstein has excellent chops for example even though he tends to be regarded as a restrained, spacious player. But a surprisingly large number seem to have arrived at it less as the result of teaching and more as some sort of self teaching process with divergent results (not a bad thing in itself and as say above I wonder if sometimes it’s better not to get tuition in technique than the wrong type of teaching.)

in any case I think rest stroke picking is manifestly a good model… Troy demonstrated that this can be extended to electric.

Technique should be the easiest aspect of music to discuss really. It’s scientific. So good for Troy applying some degree of science to the problem.

This is not actually to do with Troy himself - I get skeptical when one person with one view becomes THE approach - everyone, however smart and rigorous, has their blindspots. You see that a bit with Estill Voicecraft in singing and so on… (and singing has even more mystique because you have to shove a camera down your throat to see what’s going on!)

We should have more like Troy is what I’m saying (but I’m not doing it haha.)

The purpose of learning Federer or Costa's technique is obviously not to compete with them - it's about learning the craft from the best and being the best one can be. The Talent Code is a serious book and I used "champions" with comas for lack of a better word. The youngsters at Meadowmount - which has a very prestigious roster of teachers and ex-pupils, as in best in the world - are not trained to win competitions but to be the best they can be.

Do you think Troy, Andy, Molly, Joscho, Olli, etc. or any of the players lack any articulation, precision or rhythmical acuity? Because to my ear they excel on all counts. Peter Bernstein has good chops but nothing extraordinary, his strumming especially is inconsistent (good to not so good) and needs some work IMO. Troy's stuff was never about speed exclusively (for the nth time) but I don't quite follow your argument on speed. Someone comes to you and he can't cop those four high-speed measures of a Clifford Brown or Joe Pass chorus, what solution do you offer? Go back to it in five years? Start with a slow metronome? Or wants to cop Joscho Stephan, etc. I'm assuming mature people here, not a teenager, whose speed-obsessed phase (a positive thing in itself) will inevitably pass, at least in jazz. How about the young neo-grass crowd: Wood, Tuttle, Chris Eldridge (Julian Lage's pal) ? Crossover has already happened (Eldridge/Lage) - won't some new players take inspiration from that crowd and want to play like that. All those dudes and dudettes have impecable timing, swing, articulation, etc. What solution do you offer ? Well for those people Troy's material has a lot of answers IMO. I frankly don't see any downside to superior technique. As the clich goes any technique can be used for good or bad.

[pamosmusic]

Peter Bernstein has good chops but nothing extraordinary, his strumming especially is inconsistent (good to not so good) and needs some work IMO.

Heyoooooo.

Yikes. This is one of those things that might prove the opposite point. If his technique is bad, then what is the point of good?

For what it’s worth, earlier in the conversation, there was some conversation about violin and piano envy and it’s worth pointing out that the Suzuki methods, for example, focus on musicality first and foremost. I’ve taught from the Austin Classical Guitar curriculum which is pretty similar in that respect.

Technique is super important, but I think it’s worth asking how we should work on technique? I tend to think it’s way more useful to practice technique in terms of solving musical problems. Like working on wide interval jumps that I can apply to lines. Working on left-hand slurs in the context of bebop heads. That kind of thing.

Troy’s stuff doesn’t seem to contradict any of that. But guitar players love an excuse to just play super fast, so they’ll find one either way.

[pamosmusic]

I frankly don't see any downside to superior technique.

Worth pointing out that I don’t think anyone anywhere is saying there is a downside to superior technique.

[pamosmusic]

Anyway, ever get that thing when you’ve been listening to, I don’t know, a load of Adam Rogers playing some savage double time, and then you pick up the guitar and are surprised because what comes out sounds like Adam and has some of that evenness, speed and clarity even tho you don’t/can’t normally play like that?

or whoever?

The brain signal is really important.

I wish.

But for real. I’ve spent two and half days or whatever working on some of these Barry Harris things, and my double time stuff is suddenly better. And it’s not that my technique has improved in two and a half days; it’s that there was some clunkiness in there because I didn’t have access to some vocabulary I needed. So it’s the musical access to that vocabulary, not any technical improvement that helped. And it’s not to say the technique is unimportant. It’s just that the technique is already there.

I think guitar players (probably musicians in general?) realllllllyyyy underestimate how much technique is already there. A lot of the time it’s a musical improvement that opens it up. Technique can always be better, but at some point you have to weigh what you do with your time. I absolutely CAN play at 280. I know that because I can play double time at 140. But it sounds bad when I do a lot of the time and that’s because my articulation isn’t as natural when I’m feeling that bright tempo, because changes are moving faster, etc. So I could work on technique to clean things up, or I could work on some more musical agility so that I can use what I already have. It might be worth asking, at that point, if better technique would actually help at all? It might. But without the vocabulary, I’m kind of skeptical. I’m not sure and I don’t think it’s a straightforward answer either way.

It’s also worth asking, past a certain point, if there’s much separation between technical fluency and musical fluency at all, probably.

[Christian Miller]

I wish.

But for real. I’ve spent two and half days or whatever working on some of these Barry Harris things, and my double time stuff is suddenly better. And it’s not that my technique has improved in two and a half days; it’s that there was some clunkiness in there because I didn’t have access to some vocabulary I needed. So it’s the musical access to that vocabulary, not any technical improvement that helped. And it’s not to say the technique is unimportant. It’s just that the technique is already there.

I think guitar players (probably musicians in general?) realllllllyyyy underestimate how much technique is already there. A lot of the time it’s a musical improvement that opens it up. Technique can always be better, but at some point you have to weigh what you do with your time. I absolutely CAN play at 280. I know that because I can play double time at 140. But it sounds bad when I do a lot of the time and that’s because my articulation isn’t as natural when I’m feeling that bright tempo, because changes are moving faster, etc. So I could work on technique to clean things up, or I could work on some more musical agility so that I can use what I already have. It might be worth asking, at that point, if better technique would actually help at all? It might. But without the vocabulary, I’m kind of skeptical. I’m not sure and I don’t think it’s a straightforward answer either way.

It’s also worth asking, past a certain point, if there’s much separation between technical fluency and musical fluency at all, probably.

100%

I think this video is interesting for example, because it shows a different approach.

When Pasquale plays a fast tempo it sounds fast and super impressive, playing endless fluent embedded bop language.

When Pete plays a fast tempo it sounds (mostly) relaxed and open, and like he’s reaching for something improvisational.

but if you pay close attention Pete is absolutely playing plenty of eighth notes…

this is largely how in they *feel* the tempo.

it’s a bit like the thing Prez (and Bird on the quiet on very fast tempos 360 up) did with fast tempos. Steve Coleman referred to it as ‘the beginner professional sound.’

[m_d]

Heyoooooo.

Yikes. This is one of those things that might prove the opposite point. If his technique is bad, then what is the point of good?

For what it’s worth, earlier in the conversation, there was some conversation about violin and piano envy and it’s worth pointing out that the Suzuki methods, for example, focus on musicality first and foremost. I’ve taught from the Austin Classical Guitar curriculum which is pretty similar in that respect.

Technique is super important, but I think it’s worth asking how we should work on technique? I tend to think it’s way more useful to practice technique in terms of solving musical problems. Like working on wide interval jumps that I can apply to lines. Working on left-hand slurs in the context of bebop heads. That kind of thing.

Troy’s stuff doesn’t seem to contradict any of that. But guitar players love an excuse to just play super fast, so they’ll find one either way.

I'm aware how provocative that sounded but I unfortunately meant it - though I didn't say it was bad but not always good. I can hear it and it does bother me. Points of reference I have are Freddie Green and for full chords, my former teacher, gypsy-inspired players (I like the guys who can branch out a bit like Biréli and Joscho, dislike plain pompe), some early Mark Whitfield, some Russell Malone, some Van Itersen, but there's not that many, very few jazz guys do full chord strumming well. It's something I value, but most players apparently do not - so I can understand. To me it's too good to pass, as it is so guitaristic, so I have no patience for boring or non-swinging comping. Mark Whitfield can be infuriating, because he can execute very clean technique, but sometimes seems to forget. As to me trust me I know what I want to do with it and it's not speed for speed's sake. My ideal is a style blending chords and lines seemlessly.

[Christian Miller]

Haha well have to disagree. I really like Pete’s feel. I think if you don’t think he swings, that might be more your perception of what you think of as swinging, a taste thing. I think he’s really great at comping in a duo and I regard myself as quite discerning about that sort of thing. I don’t like everyone… Pete’s also coming out of Monk as well.

I mean he kicked my ass in the lesson fwiw haha

The La pompe thing is different. Respect to the greats like Hono Winterstein, drummer on the guitar. It’s a different feel. More up on the beat perhaps. I often find the medium tempo GJ feel a bit stiff tbh. A bit more polka perhaps. As it’s modelled on 1930s European foxtrot no surprise there I guess. I like a rolling medium bounce, which I suppose is more of a 40s US thing. Nat Cole trio etc. that’s where I go to if I’m asked to play that tempo. I daresay the GJ purists would object.

Some of my favourite rhythm players actually come from the bop era - Jim Hall, Tal Farlow, Billy Bean etc… I generally go more for US rhythm players today, Matt munisteri, Chirillo etc.

personally I like a more interactive style of comping than straight rhythm guitar as well. Both as soloist and comper. But keeping some of the ethos of rhythm guitar if that makes sense. I think Pete does that as well as anyone.

For what it’s worth I think rhythm guitar is an excellent way to cultivate one’s comping abilities on the guitar. I spent a few hundred to a thousand gigs playing for dancers and that definitely did something haha

[BreckerFan]

It’s also worth asking, past a certain point, if there’s much separation between technical fluency and musical fluency at all, probably.

This exactly. There are a lot of times when I'm transcribing where when I start I think I'll be able to play the solo no problem, because it's only at x tempo and I can play at x tempo. Then of course I get into the nuts and bolts and I can barely play along at 75% speed, because there are phrases that are outside my comfort zone. It's like what I said about Paul Gilbert; he can play his sixes licks at 200 bpm or whatever, but put Donna Lee in front of him and I suspect things would fall apart a bit. How fast you can play and what you're playing can't be divorced from each other.

That's why my technical practice now is focused on etudes and transcribed lines. Still very much working on technique, but trying to make it practical for actual improvisation, rather than just technique in the abstract. However I have been finding recently that it is still necessary to spend some time working on fundamentals (scales played in ways to target mechanics). As with most things, falling into one extreme or the other leaves gaps.

[Christian Miller]

The purpose of learning Federer or Costa's technique is obviously not to compete with them - it's about learning the craft from the best and being the best one can be. The Talent Code is a serious book and I used "champions" with comas for lack of a better word. The youngsters at Meadowmount - which has a very prestigious roster of teachers and ex-pupils, as in best in the world - are not trained to win competitions but to be the best they can be.

Do you think Troy, Andy, Molly, Joscho, Olli, etc. or any of the players lack any articulation, precision or rhythmical acuity? Because to my ear they excel on all counts. Peter Bernstein has good chops but nothing extraordinary, his strumming especially is inconsistent (good to not so good) and needs some work IMO. Troy's stuff was never about speed exclusively (for the nth time) but I don't quite follow your argument on speed. Someone comes to you and he can't cop those four high-speed measures of a Clifford Brown or Joe Pass chorus, what solution do you offer? Go back to it in five years? Start with a slow metronome? Or wants to cop Joscho Stephan, etc. I'm assuming mature people here, not a teenager, whose speed-obsessed phase (a positive thing in itself) will inevitably pass, at least in jazz. How about the young neo-grass crowd: Wood, Tuttle, Chris Eldridge (Julian Lage's pal) ? Crossover has already happened (Eldridge/Lage) - won't some new players take inspiration from that crowd and want to play like that. All those dudes and dudettes have impecable timing, swing, articulation, etc. What solution do you offer ? Well for those people Troy's material has a lot of answers IMO. I frankly don't see any downside to superior technique. As the clich goes any technique can be used for good or bad.

i think you’re shadow boxing a bit here. I have no beef with chops or technique. I think it can morph into a bit of an obsession with minutiae which can both be useful and hold one back depending.

As I say I work on technique all the time. (Actually for me my right hand technique if not totally bullet proof is very solid in 99% of situations. It’s actually my left hand which has been the issue. Working on the left hand can really improve picking haha.)

actually I see speed more as a product of good relaxed and efficient technique and accurate subdivision/hearing. If you are thinking about speed rather than ‘music’ or ‘phrase’ or ‘biddley widdly biddley boo’ or WHATEVER, I think you can be a bit screwed. If I think about that stuff on a gig heaven forbid - that’s it. I’m screwed for sure!

Speed is not really the objective, more the by product of having efficient biomechanics, a relaxed body and mind, sufficient muscle memory and being able to hear the thing in your head REALLY WELL.

Case study - I have a student who is very good but his concern with speed is actually a bit of an impediment to him. He’s a bit of a prog metaller, very much into speed and chops. Tbh it gets in the way.

We’ve been working on Holdsworth (16 men of tain, the drums were yellow, serious stuff) and so much of it just talking him down from being concerned about speed. Do it slower. Focus on left hand accuracy with metronome. Focus on even-ness. How much force do you need to make the note sound after a hammer on? Not that much right? trust it to come out. Keep breathing. Play slowly and relaxed precisely with the metronome (much more of challenge with left hand slurring than fast of course). above all - what does it sound like?

I try to get him to teach me the phrases, and he tells me the numbers. Then I say no - just play it, and I’ll hear it. One bit at a time. I think that helps him hear it too. By treating it as music and not a fretboard object.

And of course after 30m of this type of warming up he can absolutely play the stuff no problem. His body and his ears know what to do. But there’s a psychological barrier there.

It’s all there, though.

I think it all starts with the music. That’s one of the benefits of transcription btw - gets the brain signal going. I think doing a lot of that can stop people from getting too bound up in what way their pick is going or whatever which is sometimes necessary to consider but once you have your basic stuff together often about as much use as thinking about what foot to put down next when running up the stairs.

[Christian Miller]

This exactly. There are a lot of times when I'm transcribing where when I start I think I'll be able to play the solo no problem, because it's only at x tempo and I can play at x tempo. Then of course I get into the nuts and bolts and I can barely play along at 75% speed, because there are phrases that are outside my comfort zone. It's like what I said about Paul Gilbert no; he can play his sixes licks at 200 bpm or whatever, but put Donna Lee in front of him and I suspect things would fall apart a bit. How fast you can play and what you're playing can't be divorced from each other.

Maybe, I’m sure he’d learn it if he doesn’t know it already…. Imo the hard thing about DL (which isn’t easy of course) is less playing the notes and more about phrasing them.

As an aside I have a lot of respect for Paul as a musican. He’s a musical guy on a basic level, not just a guitar technician. This is fun….

Obv he’s not a ‘jazz guitarist’ but his sense of feel and his singing voice etc and ability to wing a tune like that says a lot about his musicianship. He likes and knows lots of songs and he likes to sing a bit and play in bands. That shouldn’t be remarkable of course, but I’m not sure it’s universal among the internet widdly widdly community haha. In this I feel he’s more like someone like George Harrison than Plini or someone…

[bediles]

Commenting on just the technique elements of this discussion:

Sounds like m_d is saying that on average most jazz guitar players (semipro to pro) alt picking technique is lacking compared to analogous techniques on other instruments with more robust pedagogy.

Yes there are other techniques to add speed and that may even more desirable musically but it's funny to me that a basic (I guess not so basic) skill lacks in most players.

[pamosmusic]

Commenting on just the technique elements of this discussion:

Sounds like m_d is saying that on average most jazz guitar players (semipro to pro) alt picking technique is lacking compared to analogous techniques on other instruments with more robust pedagogy.

Yes there are other techniques to add speed and that may even more desirable musically but it's funny to me that a basic (I guess not so basic) skill lacks in most players.

Yeah I think that’s what Christian means by shadow boxing. I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that. Nor does anyone here think technique is useless. So I think we’re all just weighing some priorities differently.

And I’ll say it again.

I’d love to play faster.

Sigh.

[BreckerFan]

Maybe, I’m sure he’d learn it if he doesn’t know it already…. Imo the hard thing about DL (which isn’t easy of course) is less playing the notes and more about phrasing them.

As an aside I have a lot of respect for Paul as a musican. He’s a musical guy on a basic level, not just a guitar technician. This is fun….

Obv he’s not a ‘jazz guitarist’ but his sense of feel and his singing voice etc and ability to wing a tune like that says a lot about his musicianship. He likes and knows lots of songs and he likes to sing a bit and play in bands. That shouldn’t be remarkable of course, but I’m not sure it’s universal among the internet widdly widdly community haha. In this I feel he’s more like someone like George Harrison than Plini or someone…

Oh yeah that wasn't meant to be a dig at Gilbert. His stuff since the shred days has gone in some really interesting and musical directions, he's definitely not a one dimensional chops dude. I just meant there isn't an equation to abstractly quantify technique. PG can play 16ths at 200 bpm if he's playing his licks, but I don't think that would immediately transfer to being able to burn the head of Donna Lee. But I'm sure given time he would be just fine; honestly would be cool to see what he could do with his chops if he spent like 5 years studying Coltrane haha.

[Christian Miller]

Commenting on just the technique elements of this discussion:

Sounds like m_d is saying that on average most jazz guitar players (semipro to pro) alt picking technique is lacking compared to the other instruments with more robust pedagogy.

Maybe… this is kind of my point actually!

One thing is i think this is partly because the trad alternate picking is not an especially easy technique to master or especially well taught for reasons Troy elucidates.

Essentially the problem is imo there’s a lack of info given to the student about how to make movements and so on. In a worse case scenario the student is simply told to move the pick up and down… Troy’s onto that of course.

I advocate dwps style rest stroke because basically it worked for me and seemingly lots of people, but there are other approaches. This is not a pure alt picking approach. Otoh players using various incarnations of dwps picking outnumber alt pickers among the jazz greats… it is also, I think, quite easy and natural to learn once you deprogram yourself from a bad habits.

a reliable alt picking technique that rturns out very good alt pickers with the same regularity as GJ turns out monster rest stroke pickers would of course be great… I’m not sure it exists at present?

ATM I would say master level alt pickers are exceptional within plectrum guitar full stop (even country flatpickers are not all alternate - Tony Rice was modified dwps rest stroke guy for instance) - which suggests that it is 1) hard and/or 2) not taught especially well.

Maybe you differ on that?

in any case you can alternate pick at moderate speed just fine with most pick stances. It’s when it gets fast or you have to do a lot of challenging string crossing that the problems set it.

Yes there are other techniques to add speed and that may even more desirable musically but it's funny to me that a basic (I guess not so basic) skill lacks in most players.

I would agree with that

So obv m_d can answer this, but I don’t think the emphasis is on alt picking per se as neither Joscho or Bireli (that m_d posted) are alternate pickers, right?

it’s more on having a solid right hand that allows you to play the music you want to. Dwps is not foolproof in this regard (which is why Bireli and Tony rice and others adapted it), but it’s a great foundation.

But not everyone uses it, of course, and I’m open to other techniques (although maybe not to relearning my picking for the third or fourth time haha.)

[m_d]

Some of my favourite rhythm players actually come from the bop era - Jim Hall, Tal Farlow, Billy Bean etc… I generally go more for US rhythm players today, Matt munisteri, Chirillo etc.

personally I like a more interactive style of comping than straight rhythm guitar as well. Both as soloist and comper. But keeping some of the ethos of rhythm guitar if that makes sense. I think Pete does that as well as anyone.

For what it’s worth I think rhythm guitar is an excellent way to cultivate one’s comping abilities on the guitar. I spent a few hundred to a thousand gigs playing for dancers and that definitely did something haha

Again I never said I thought his comping was all bad but it's going to be read that way so never mind.

Hall was an omission - a giant as to comping for sure. Chririllo is great, but afaik FG style only. I go for the American over French jazz comping feel too but see BL and JS as in between and capable of both.

[Christian Miller]

Again I never said I thought his comping was all bad but it's going to be read that way so never mind.

it seemed to me you were saying that his rhythmic feel with the strumming wasn’t quite on point? Is that not what you were saying?

[m_d]

Maybe… this is kind of my point actually!

One thing is i think this is partly because the trad alternate picking is not an especially easy technique to master or especially well taught for reasons Troy elucidates.

Essentially the problem is imo there’s a lack of info given to the student about how to make movements and so on. In a worse case scenario the student is simply told to move the pick up and down… Troy’s onto that of course.

I advocate dwps style rest stroke because basically it worked for me and seemingly lots of people, but there are other approaches. This is not a pure alt picking approach. Otoh players using various incarnations of dwps picking outnumber alt pickers among the jazz greats… it is also, I think, quite easy and natural to learn once you deprogram yourself from a bad habits.

a reliable alt picking technique that rturns out very good alt pickers with the same regularity as GJ turns out monster rest stroke pickers would of course be great… I’m not sure it exists at present?

ATM I would say master level alt pickers are exceptional within plectrum guitar full stop (even country flatpickers are not all alternate - Tony Rice was modified dwps rest stroke guy for instance) - which suggests that it is 1) hard and/or 2) not taught especially well.

Maybe you differ on that?

in any case you can alternate pick at moderate speed just fine with most pick stances. It’s when it gets fast or you have to do a lot of challenging string crossing that the problems set it.



So obv m_d can answer this, but I don’t think the emphasis is on alt picking per se as neither Joscho or Bireli (that m_d posted) are alternate pickers, right?

it’s more on having a solid right hand that allows you to play the music you want to. Dwps is not foolproof in this regard (which is why Bireli and Tony rice and others adapted it), but it’s a great foundation.

But not everyone uses it, of course, and I’m open to other techniques (although maybe not to relearning my picking for the third or fourth time haha.)

Andy Wood's pure alternate is a gem and very well explained in the TG material, also Molly Tuttle's. Andy's strumming prowess is equal to Joscho's with his hand position which is interesting to note. It's very widespread in bluegrass. His DSX (which he uses for high speeds) is basically the same as Di Meola and McLaughlin. Troy makes the point that DSX being more vertical to the string bed is the better candidate for mixing up with pure alternate. It may not be too much work once your system has internalized dwps, however the right hand doesn't work in isolation from the left.

[bediles]

Maybe… this is kind of my point actually!

One thing is i think this is partly because the trad alternate picking is not an especially easy technique to master or especially well taught for reasons Troy elucidates.

Essentially the problem is imo there’s a lack of info given to the student about how to make movements and so on. In a worse case scenario the student is simply told to move the pick up and down… Troy’s onto that of course.

I advocate dwps style rest stroke because basically it worked for me and seemingly lots of people, but there are other approaches. This is not a pure alt picking approach. Otoh players using various incarnations of dwps picking outnumber alt pickers among the jazz greats… it is also, I think, quite easy and natural to learn once you deprogram yourself from a bad habits.

a reliable alt picking technique that rturns out very good alt pickers with the same regularity as GJ turns out monster rest stroke pickers would of course be great… I’m not sure it exists at present?

I agree. I even would go as far to say that outside of GJ many are not taught that DWPS is an option. So so alt picking and great LH work would be more standard. Likely coming out of rock/fusion so for stylistic reasons but also bc picking of any kind is not taught well.

ATM I would say master level alt pickers are exceptional within plectrum guitar full stop (even country flatpickers are not all alternate - Tony Rice was modified dwps rest stroke guy for instance) - which suggests that it is 1) hard and/or 2) not taught especially well.

Maybe you differ on that?

The economy guys in bluegrass etc seem to be the exception but I honestly don't know. This world seems to produce more high ability true alt pickers for some reason.

in any case you can alternate pick at moderate speed just fine with most pick stances. It’s when it gets fast or you have to do a lot of challenging string crossing that the problems set it.

Exactly, the obsession of finding one technique that works for all situations is futile unless you're an amazing true alt picker... even then not stylistic in a lot of situations.

Moderate temps: some kind of true alt swings better

When it get faster: speed easier when you get rid of the slow string crossing (for most people) also, things straighten out.

So obv m_d can answer this, but I don’t think the emphasis is on alt picking per se as neither Joscho or Bireli (that m_d posted) are alternate pickers, right?

it’s more on having a solid right hand that allows you to play the music you want to. Dwps is not foolproof in this regard (which is why Bireli and Tony rice and others adapted it), but it’s a great foundation.

But not everyone uses it, of course, and I’m open to other techniques (although maybe not to relearning my picking for the third or fourth time haha.)

My main point is that any picking technique is poorly taught in mainstream jazz. You teaching DWPS outside of a GJ context is a rarity. Instruction is maybe trending this way in the last 8 years or so with more access to info etc. But when I was shedding/schooling I met boat loads of masters/seasoned pros/profs that didn't mention these aspects of technique at all.

Hehe Don't relearn your picking, it's great. Time better spent elsewhere unless you're 20years old and can practice all day. Great chops in Jazz is maybe 160 16ths playing lines (plus headroom). Thinking Off the Top, Benson. I Gravity towards the more melodic guys anyways but am just annoyed that picking pedagogy didn't exist 10 years ago.

[m_d]

it seemed to me you were saying that his rhythmic feel with the strumming wasn’t quite on point? Is that not what you were saying?

Compared to Jim Hall (both being "harmonic" compers), not swinging, some harshness, not pleasant to listen too - again, NOT ALWAYS. Not much attention to muted upstrokes and rythmical language besides the harmonic (many players in that case).

[Christian Miller]

OK, I'll chalk that up taste then. Peter's comping is the high watermark for me...

[supersoul]

Worth pointing out that I don’t think anyone anywhere is saying there is a downside to superior technique.

I'll go out on a limb and say there is a downside to having superior technique. It takes a lot of practice time to achieve superior technique, and that time could be spent working on other things that, in my humble opinion, are more useful musically.

As far as playing the fast bits of Clifford Brown or Joe Pass, it all depends on if it's useful to me and my own playing. If it is I'll put in the time and work it up to speed with a metronome. But to me Clifford Brown has such a sweet tone, I'd be more like to figure out how he plays something slow or mid tempo. All his articulations, dynamics, how he plays around the beat, etc.

[Christian Miller]

I agree. I even would go as far to say that outside of GJ many are not taught that DWPS is an option. So so alt picking and great LH work would be more standard. Likely coming out of rock/fusion so for stylistic reasons but also bc picking of any kind is not taught well.

Yes I think that's likely. If anything, Benson picking (being IMO a variant of dwps picking) is better known. DWPS picking is often thought of as only good for GJ stuff for some reason. People used to me you couldn't play bop with it.

Actually it can be adapted for bop with few or no problems, you can't always do pure GJ picking, but I haven't had trouble changing the picking angle and stuff to allow a little two way economy and so on where required which is not actually as often as you'd think. Birelli appears to do this...

Now I'm moving towards alt picking with the same stance. Mike Stern appears to do this... I think DWPS is a solid base for picking. Not the only one, but it works.

The economy guys in bluegrass etc seem to be the exception but I honestly don't know. This world seems to produce more high ability true alt pickers for some reason.

I've noticed that too - not sure why. I think the music maybe suits it better.

But the double down and alt cross picking patterns are the two main schools. I go with the former.

I really don't like referring to DWPS style picking as a branch of 'economy picking' BTW. I feel it has economy elements but feels qualitatively different. Using the next string as a pick stop has a different feel to simply doing directional picking across the strings if that makes sense.

Exactly, the obsession of finding one technique that works for all situations is futile unless you're an amazing true alt picker... even then not stylistic in a lot of situations.

Moderate temps: some kind of true alt swings better

I certainly enjoy alternate picking at moderate speeds. It feels very connected to the beat.

Of course downstroke only is even better!;-)

When it get faster: speed easier when you get rid of the slow string crossing (for most people) also, things straighten out.

My main point is that any picking technique is poorly taught in mainstream jazz.

This is my perception but I would hesitate to state that outright. I never went to jazz school, so I do have the risk of doing the chippy autodidact thing and denouncing it all as a crock of shit. It seems like it's pot luck if you get someone with a good, teachable methodology, like Rodney or one of Chuck Wayne's students.

I do feel in the jazz guitar lessons I had in my life some teachers seemed to want to do things with the picking hand that felt awkward and difficult, so I'm afraid I basically ignored them. I've always had good chops anyway, however I picked. I later learned GJ picking for acoustic projection, not speed.

I do notice a lot of schooled players seem to be a little frustrated with their level of picking speed. Maybe they just like to moan. But there often seems to be a lot of tension with regards to string crossing in particular.

You teaching DWPS outside of a GJ context is a rarity. Instruction is maybe trending this way in the last 8 years or so with more access to info etc. But when I was shedding/schooling I met boat loads of masters/seasoned pros/profs that didn't mention these aspects of technique at all.

No idea really. I think rest strokes are generally good for kids.

I don't teach much technique to adults, actually I think often as pamos points out there's less of technical problem than a hearing problem. If there's a snag encountered I feel I can advise.

Hehe Don't relearn your picking, it's great.

Thanks. I'm pretty happy with it. Although I seem to have three concurrent tehniques at the moment - muted, floating hand and underhand. Not sure what's going off with that. Hey ho. I think the fact that I relearned a few times might help me as a teacher.