Three Finger Guitar Technique

[christianm77]

The interesting thing is how hard it is to tell the difference. I wasn't expecting that. I clearly hear the line a certain way and play it that way.

Hal Galper teaches that music is done in the mind and that the instrument is just an illusion. So it doesn't really matter in a way, 3 fingers, 4 fingers ...

I'd be interested to hear some examples from others who are up for it.

[Vladan]

The interesting thing is how hard it is to tell the difference. ...

To avoid misunderstanding, to me, two versions do not sound similar at all, I just can not tell which fingering you used and where (unless I'd try to transcribe your exact phrasing, in which case placement of slides and pull - offs hammer - ons ... would be telling), nor I can make a clear choice about preference.

I mean, they sound so much different, like 2 completely different lines, so it's kind of comparing apples to oranges, if I managed to explain my self ...
To people with better musical memory maybe they sound more similar, I really had to rewind couple of times to check if it was the same line first place.

[Jonah]

Funny thing...

When I listened to these examples - how different they sounded...
I rememembered how it was when I was in classical guitar as a kid...
it was always pushed that all the notes should sound equal no matter what fingering you used...

I mean you should have focused on this technical point (the same thing concerned right hand by the way)

The general conception was that fingering is only about convinience and physical efficiency... and the details of phrasing should be achieved through this complete control of the instrument.

For example playing all legato in one position and then with shifts in a way that one would not be able to recognize that fingering and shifts effect smoothness of legato.

When later I met flamenco players I noticed that they used different fingereings and different right hand technique from the very beginning to get different phrasings and accents and tone.

Probably ut is because vocabulary and repertoire is much more homogenous. They just do not need stylistic verstality so much.

I believe in jazz it is different too since invidual phrasing goes first.

Of course in classical it is involved too in the process... but it is not taken for granted.

[christianm77]

More interesting still!

[christianm77]

Ok since I'm not convinced anyone else will chip in, I'll reveal that:

Ex 1 4 then 3 fingers
Ex 2 same
Ex 3 3 then 4 fingers

My feeling was that I enjoyed playing with three fingers although it's not the way I normally play and I would struggle to play that bop line (anthropology) faster than that atm

[Jonah]

hm... when I listned it was exactly the 3rd example that made me doubt... so probably the difference is still audible?

[christianm77]

hm... when I listned it was exactly the 3rd example that made me doubt... so probably the difference is still audible?

That's why I mixed it up, as I explained on the recording.

Anyway which did you prefer?

[mr. beaumont]

Ok since I'm not convinced anyone else will chip in, I'll reveal that:

Ex 1 4 then 3 fingers
Ex 2 same
Ex 3 3 then 4 fingers

My feeling was that I enjoyed playing with three fingers although it's not the way I normally play and I would struggle to play that bop line (anthropology) faster than that atm

So this would explain why I heard no difference on the "Blue Monk" clip!

I have to go back and listen to the third example again...folks are definitely hearing some things I didn't notice.

Not sure how much it all matters, as long as it sounds "good." But as an intellectual curiosity, this has been fun.

[christianm77]

I want to hear some other people do it

[Jonah]

Anyway which did you prefer?

can't say about scales... tunes have inner logic, sentences so I appreciate your phrasing in relation to how I understand 'the text'... scales are abstract. Besides you seem to phrase scales differently irrelatively to 3 or 4 fingers... you group notes in a bit different way.

It seems that in slow scale example 1 you play only hammer on/pull offs and in example 2 you play also slides

And faster scale example 2 sounds more 'non leagto'


As per tunes

'Blue Monk'
version 1 sounds a bit lighter and cleaner
version 2 is like sitting more on the beat and sounds more like it is improvised or sung - I prefer this one

Anthropology
at the beginning both sound very similar but
you speed up version 2 at the end... sounds like it is just simpler to play at fast tempor
again version 1 sounds more on the beat... has more pulse in it... I prefer this one


But after all I am not sure it shows anything...
1) phrasing depends by far not only on fingerins
2) what is really 3 or 4 fingers technique - just number of ingers involved? I am not sure... it should be also other aspects as wrist position, fretboard organization etc. If I am 4 finger playe but occasionally on some reasons I play with 2 or 3 fingers without changing anything else - will it make a 3 finger player? I think not...
3) I think it is not quite correct that the same player tries to play both consequently


But it was fun! Thank you!

[christianm77]

can't say about scales... tunes have inner logic, sentences so I appreciate your phrasing in relation to how I understand 'the text'... scales are abstract. Besides you seem to phrase scales differently irrelatively to 3 or 4 fingers... you group notes in a bit different way.

It seems that in slow scale example 1 you play only hammer on/pull offs and in example 2 you play also slides

And faster scale example 2 sounds more 'non leagto'


As per tunes

'Blue Monk'
version 1 sounds a bit lighter and cleaner
version 2 is like sitting more on the beat and sounds more like it is improvised or sung - I prefer this one

Anthropology
at the beginning both sound very similar but
you speed up version 2 at the end... sounds like it is just simpler to play at fast tempor
again version 1 sounds more on the beat... has more pulse in it... I prefer this one


But after all I am not sure it shows anything...
1) phrasing depends by far not only on fingerins
2) what is really 3 or 4 fingers technique - just number of ingers involved? I am not sure... it should be also other aspects as wrist position, fretboard organization etc. If I am 4 finger playe but occasionally on some reasons I play with 2 or 3 fingers without changing anything else - will it make a 3 finger player? I think not...
3) I think it is not quite correct that the same player tries to play both consequently


But it was fun! Thank you!

I think your listening is perceptive and I agree.

So...3 fingers sounds slightly better? For me at least ;-) I kind of like the way it feels, but it's hard to break one's early training.

I think sliding and bouncing around positions gives a more vocal sound generally.... There's no reason why you can't use the 4th finger, but it's not to be too dogmatic about positional playing, perhaps.

[Jonah]

4 finger technique))) I took lessons from this guy.. he used to say: pinky is the King!

[christianm77]

4 finger technique))) I took lessons from this guy.. he used to say: pinky is the King!

He is certainly not dogmatic about positional playing.

Also hand - rather heavily pronated?

Lovely player.

[princeplanet]

I'm not so sure of that. Think of the old Cramps song, "The way I walk is just the way I walk." It's not like I decided to walk the way I do but it would be hard to try and walk in some other way. I don't think much about my fingering while I'm playing. (Really, it only comes to mind when there is a problem.) If your fingers are pointing toward the bridge when you play, you won't play the same way you would if your fingers remained in neat rows one-finger-per-fret fashion pointing toward the fingerboard. Some people use both approaches, depending on the needs of the moment. It's like being able to speak two languages.

So, how many fingers does Ivy use?

This discussion is old, and beyond tired. People have made up their minds and are simply defending or justifying the approach they're heavily invested in. If you've spent a life learning how to play using only one knuckle, your probably gonna sound better at the style you created than the guys with 4 fingers who try to emulate said "style"....

[Jonah]

He is certainly not dogmatic about positional playing.

He is not dogmatic about anything...

He can play anything anyhow... when I was in the first lesson with him I tried to show hime my approach...
He said: 'you know some play 2 notes per strind, some 3.. some from position, some from chord shapes etc. (and he played fluently all over the neck every approach he mentioned...!) the thing is only about playing any idea you have anywhere right now... and this is an endless journey... because ideas you know they never stop coming)))

And he does not force you learn his approach at all... you can play three fingers if you want he does not care about it.
I am not always with him in his melodic ideas, but it's another story. he is very musical anyway in phrasing, rythm... feel of partners.


He is fantastic guy by the way... lived in NY for 15 years... played with so many greats... I even came across Jim Hall mentioning him very positively in one interview... as I understood he was especially close with Attilla Zoller, in some vids I saw him playing old Attila's Framus.

In the first lesson we just talked for 2 hours and then we played for two more... with no extra charges

And he fantastic acompanist, check this track

[Vladan]

I want to hear some other people do it

I learned whole Straight No Chaser head in "my position" and fingerings,
when and if ever I get it in Mr. B's position, as well as an octave higher,
and if I ever manage to play it with only 3 fingers, in any position,
I will post.

Actually, I can already (almost) play the first 4-5 bars in all above mentioned variants (only I can not quite reach the speed and I tend to make too many mistakes ).

[Jonah]

I like this approach to fingering in Straight No Chaser

[MarkRhodes]

So, how many fingers does Ivy use?

This discussion is old, and beyond tired. People have made up their minds and are simply defending or justifying the approach they're heavily invested in. If you've spent a life learning how to play using only one knuckle, your probably gonna sound better at the style you created than the guys with 4 fingers who try to emulate said "style"....

Ivy relied mainly on three fingers. And "'green fuz." ;o)

The discussion may be old but I think it remains useful. If I could change it in any way I would take the focus off the number of fingers (predominantly) used and put it on the position of the fretting hand. (And note that the position may change from piece to piece, or even within a single piece.)

I was taught to play with four fingers, one finger per fret, but I don't see myself here as defending / justifying that approach even though I'm heavily invested in it. Quite the opposite: I'm seeing some advantages in shifting and slurring more than I did when I started out. If someone watched me play for an hour (-and I mean play tunes and jam, not play scales and arpeggios, warm-up exercises, etc) and said "you mainly use 3 fingers" and someone else said, "I saw a good bit of pinky action and would put you in the 4-finger camp," I wouldn't argue with either of them. That designation is not important to me. What matters to me is being able to execute the lines I want to play and, within that, making fingering / picking choices that make the lines come out just-so.

[Vladan]

I like this approach to fingering in Straight No Chaser ...

I guess there are not too many options for higher octave, especially on an arch top.

[Larry Feldman]

One of my favorite local Los Angeles guitarists is Darryl Darden who plays very convincingly using the 3 finger method. Wish I could do it, but I play other types of
music where a pinky is required.
Loving this thread.

[MarkRhodes]

One of my favorite local Los Angeles guitarists is Darryl Darden who plays very convincingly using the 3 finger method.

Didn't recognize the name, so I went to YouTube.

[christianm77]

The end of this debate really be a video of Wes. That should really shut down the debate IMO. Unless your guitar teacher can play better than Wes of course. Wes = best, therefore three fingers = best.

Of course there are chords and ting, but who cares about that? Harmony is dry.

Anyway, any attempt to enter a debate with me on this subject will founder on the fact that I regard Wes = best as an axiom. At least for the next few days until I decide Grant Green = best or Charlie Christian = best or something :-)

Of the alive guys, Peter Bernstein = best. Or Ed Cherry, perhaps.

All three fingers. I don't know but I do see a pattern.

[christianm77]

Anyway, on a more serious note, I did a short video on it. Nothing that's not been said before, but thought it would make a good Jazz Guitar Scrapbook vid.

[CliveR]

The pinky is the weakest and most inarticulate finger on your hand, and you use it for convenience when a stronger finger is awkward to use. Train it well, but don't expect it to do what your other fingers can do, or you'll waste a lot of time that could be used for better things.

When I studied classical guitar I was taught that the weakest finger is the 3rd or ring finger. The pinky is stronger and you have greater control over it than the 3rd.

[lammie200]

I think that the pinky is stigmatized enough so I wouldn't call it weak. I will say that you need to use all of them to play chords. You might as well use all of them for single notes, but if only three work for you then go for it.